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How do we keep our kids safe online? How do we protect our children in an overexposed, sexualized culture?
Join Mandy Majors (award-winning author of "TALK" and "Keeping Kids Safe in a Digital World") for real conversations about the intersection of tech, culture and faith.
nextTalk is a 501(c)(3) nonprofit organization keeping kids safe by creating a culture of open communication in families, churches and schools.
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"Anxious Generation" Book by Jonathan Haidt
We review the #1 New York Times Bestseller, “The Anxious Generation" by social psychologist, Jonathan Haidt. He connects the high rates of anxiety and depression with the introduction of the smart phone. Haidt lays out the problem and provides practical ideas for collaborative action to change the "great rewiring of childhood." Mandy and Kim explain how nextTalk principles bridge the gap with parenting a phone and discuss eye-opening observations they made while digging into this book.
KEEPING KIDS SAFE ONLINE
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Welcome to the Nex Talk podcast. We are passionate about keeping kids safe in an overexposed world.
Kim Elerick:It's Mandy and Kim and we're navigating tech, culture and faith with our kids.
Mandy Majors:Today we are launching season eight and we have the best show.
Kim Elerick:I'm really excited because we have read this book over the summer and it is fantastic.
Mandy Majors:Anxious Generation by Jonathan Haidt. We have been recommending it. Y'all have been emailing us asking our opinions on it, and so we took the summer, did a deep dive into it, and we have a lot of notes.
Kim Elerick:Well, I'm not going to lie. When it came in the mail, what it's very thick and I am not a reader what?
Mandy Majors:it's very thick and I am not a reader, but I did it for all of us well, and I will tell you.
Kim Elerick:If that intimidates, you still read it, because a lot of it is notes in the background like his scientific research, the studies that he's quoting so good, so much good information and, uh, just really one of those books where, when you get done reading it, you want to share it with all your friends yes.
Mandy Majors:So let us tell you a little bit about the author. He's a professor at New York University, he's a PhD in social psychology and he's been studying moral psychology for 35 years. There's a quote at the end of the book that I'm going to quote for you guys. It's so good. He's the author of numerous books, but this one, anxious Generation, was released earlier this year and it's already a bestseller. He's been all over he's in the media about this book, but he's also a husband and a dad, which I really appreciated.
Kim Elerick:I love that he's talking about something that's on our hearts and minds so much. I mean as an organization, but also as parents. But he is also a parent so often we've talked about. When we started NextTalk, it was people who were older, who were speaking into with wisdom the lives of parents but didn't have kids that they were raising through social media. Or young people who are so great at technology but didn't have kids yet. He's really looking at it the same way we have and he's got such great data, such great perspective. I just thought it was excellent.
Mandy Majors:Yeah, he brings in all a lot of research and logic and I love that. I will. I do want to note for our Christian audience, he is an atheist, um, but I actually loved that from his perspective and I'm going to we're going to dive into that a little bit more in the back, because he does talk about faith and religious communities and the positive impacts of them and I want to bring that in towards the end of this show. But first I want to start out like talking about the specific things, about how this book relates to Next Talk and parenting in the digital world. We like this book. First of all, read it, read it, read it and, like you said, it brings an apparent perspective, a logical perspective, a scientific perspective, research, all of that. So we really, really like it and we really appreciated it.
Mandy Majors:At one point in the book he says this I want to quote him right, he says I may not get everything right. Yes, that's us. I was just going to us. That's what we've been saying since 2016,. When we founded, next talk was we are on a journey Like this is a whole new thing trying to parent technology, and so we haven't gotten it right. Right, like it's a journey. We're all learning, we're all growing together, and so I loved that, from a psychologist perspective, that he said. I may not get it all right, but these are the things that I'm suggesting.
Kim Elerick:Well, and at Next Talk, we've always said, not just for you to say that to yourself, but say that to your kids. Like I'm doing the best I can. I've never parented a 13 year old or a cell phone, and I'm not going to get it all right, but I'm trying and I'm, I want to work with you on this, and it's so powerful when you're transparent like that.
Mandy Majors:It's so powerful when you're transparent like that. We're all learning, that's our phrase. We're all still learning, okay, okay. So let us break it down for you. The first part of the book he defines the problem. He talks about the emergence of smartphones in 2007. And what I loved that he said was smartphones really weren't the problem. It was actually the development of the app store in 2008. And that was the emergence of the problem, and I thought, wow, that is a really good distinction, because when you have a marketplace that is developing apps to get your attention and hold your attention, that's really where the problem came in. Not the connectability, really so much, but the apps and doing the time suck, sucking you into that.
Kim Elerick:Well, because the smartphone really. I mean you had a calculator, you had different things on there that made your life a little bit easier, but the connectedness and the addictive types of programming. That was new when it became a marketable place where people were vying for our time. So now we have over a million apps that are vying for our time and our kids' time, and that's where the change came in. It was a big difference.
Mandy Majors:He also says in 2010, the iPhone 4 came out and that was the first phone with a front-facing camera. So therefore, selfies entered our world in 2010. So you can see this progression. Also, in 2010, instagram was born, and the first couple years you could only access Instagram through your phone. You couldn't do it through a PC. Now you can, but at first it was to get kids well, to get all of us really on our phones, on that app, engaged on our phone. Draw us in, yes.
Kim Elerick:So he really sets up the timeline well when you look at the change of the phones and what's happening socially, because it's when we start to see the mental health decline in our teens, when we have the front-facing phone, when we have the social media front facing phone, when we have the social media, that period of 2010 to 2015,. He calls the great rewiring of childhood, which I love that phrase. It just really was poignant in my mind because he talked about everything that we had done before and we had said before was important in growing up our kids. Now it's changed. It's a business model.
Mandy Majors:It's flipped. Yeah, okay, so he defines 2010 to 2015. Here's, I think, a miss, and let me explain why and from a Nextalk perspective, what I'm what I'm saying here. Tiktok launched in 2016. Tiktok and yes, it was musically before, but TikTok really skyrocketed to the top. That became a place where we all got digital content with quick videos. It's the swiping of the video, swipe of the video. Our attention span. It lowers it. Since that has happened, we have seen YouTube create YouTube shorts to mirror that, because we're getting our information in bite size. It's addictive. You just want to go on to the next one. If you don't like it, you move on. That he does not include. If I were writing this book, I think I would include that timeframe as well, because I think there was another shift, after what he's talking about with Instagram, with TikTok, that he doesn't really address.
Kim Elerick:Yeah, I think that's key TikTok very important for you to mention that. For me, you know, I have a little bit younger kids. Tiktok has not really become quite a thing yet with my kids, but YouTube is like a form of TikTok, like you said. We even have a show on that Parenting YouTube. If you watch YouTube now, there are basically shorts in the beginning that are just like TikTok, and your kids can go from video to video to video without any pause or thought and or even discretion on what you're watching, and so it's very similar, and a lot of parents do not define social media as YouTube. They're like, oh, that's just, you know, a place where they watch their fun little shows. I'm telling you it's important to understand that YouTube is a form of social media and often the first form of social media that our kids are watching, and so we need to be very clear on how to parent that, and that it is also part of this conversation.
Mandy Majors:Yeah, so we would expand those years. But again, we love how he says it's the great rewiring of childhood. I think that was really good. We have a graph on our website that we created actually that shows major depression in kids and how it has doubled, and on that graph we put the years that Instagram, snapchat and TikTok were birthed, so you can see it for yourself in that graph. We did not go past 2020 because we did not want COVID to impact the rates of major depression. So go look at that on our website. It's under the help tab, but it is there, so we would just expand the years. What he is calling the great rewiring of childhood spanned the years. What he is calling the great rewiring of childhood. The thing that I loved about it when he defined this. He also said at the time that all these tech advances are being made. We are seeing kids being less playful, like creative outdoor play, which he says is essential for childhood development.
Kim Elerick:Well, it's really easy. It's really easy when it's hot, when you're stressed, when your kids' friends are all hanging out on their phones and playing video games or doing whatever it is digitally. It's easy to fall into that trap that, oh, this is just what kids are doing now. But what he's showing is that the decline. He can match up with parents not sending their kids out to play, to camp, to fish, to hunt, to wrestle with their friends, you know, to ride their bikes, some of that unstructured play that we grew up with and I think, innately, we all know that's important, but it requires a couple of different things One, to let go and let your kid go outside, which we'll address why I think some of the reason we're not doing that letting our kid go outside, but it also it just it's kind of counter-cultural because everybody's like, oh yeah, no, they're doing games, they're on their phones now.
Mandy Majors:Well, he says he talks about safetyism and he says you know now if a child is playing out front, sometimes a CPS worker could be called. Child protective services worker could be called because a kid's out playing by themselves.
Kim Elerick:Or you hear scary stories about delivery drivers.
Mandy Majors:Yeah, it's this overprotective, fear-based that we have been led to believe, because now we have access to all the scary stories. Right, that's happening with our kids, and I agreed with what he said here. But I also felt like you have to be very cautious, because we do live in a very broken world and we do have to be careful with our kids way more than when our parents were growing up. Yeah, and people have more access to our kids now, and so I got what he was saying and I appreciated it.
Mandy Majors:One of the coolest things that I did think he quoted was he quoted some research and he said after 2009, which, again, his great rewiring starts in 2010,. Right, so he's laying it out. He said the amount of hospital visits for fall related fractures, like broken bones, broken wrist, dramatically decrease. So what he's saying there is kids aren't climbing trees and falling out and getting injured. They're now on their technology instead of this creative play base that he loved. I loved, from a psychologist standpoint, how he was able to talk about childhood development. I thought that was very critical and very good.
Kim Elerick:Yeah, I did too. It really resonated with me because I could see myself in a lot of his stories where I have, because of what I've seen in social media and the change in our culture, at times I have made some fear-based decisions. Like you know, I have a 14 year old that recently was like I want to go on a bike ride by myself and I was like, oh, you got to take someone with you, you know and. And he recently had a bike crash. But that was all good for him. It's teaching him to figure out his boundaries, he's getting some independence, he's getting physical energy exercised out other than in front of a screen and so, but those are things we don't do as much anymore because we're afraid.
Mandy Majors:Yeah, this is. This is one of the lines that he said that I thought was so good. He says we are for over-protecting our children in the real world while underprotecting them in the virtual world, and that is really important. But I also was writing in my notes not a Next Talk kid, because we're not underprotecting in the virtual world. This is what Next Talk has been about from day one, right On page 105,. He also says this once a child gets online, there is never a threshold age at which she is granted more autonomy or rights. I was like all over. Not at Next Talk kid, because Next Talk that is.
Mandy Majors:That is completely opposite of what we have taught at Next Talk. You know, we use the analogy. You're teaching your kid how to use a phone like you teach them how to drive a car, and you're not going to start out going 70 miles an hour down a highway. Right. The first time you get in the car, you probably won't leave your driveway. Your kid is just learning the tools in that car, what everything does. Right. The next time you may go forward and go backwards and that's it. That's step two, right, and so we have said with phones and social media, they should earn each step. They should earn the phone, no social media at first, and then you earn every social media platform, one at a time. So it's a step-by-step process and I think that is where the book I wanted to be like hi, hi, we need to go to dinner so I can tell you about next talk.
Mandy Majors:Your research is awesome, but we have figured that out. You can't just okay, you're this age, now it's a free-for-all download everything. That's not what we're about here. It's a step-by-step process. I got so excited. I spit on myself it's okay.
Kim Elerick:You know what it's? Okay, it's a real show. Well, I think just the bottom line being for him to. I thought he laid out some really great practical ideas. But to say, okay, at 16, social media now, that's just like whoa pouring it out on your kid and not giving them the ability to walk through all the different challenges that come with that. And that's really where we come in and that's the difference.
Mandy Majors:I think that's the difference and I think probably he would agree.
Mandy Majors:I mean he said he's not going to get everything right and we've recommended things that now we've like oh no, not anymore, we can't recommend that anymore because tech is changing Right, and so, again, this is an experiment we're learning. I do think we have to be careful. He has, and why we're saying this he has a recommendation that no social media until 16. And then that's kind of like the age where you can get social media. I mean, I'm not opposed to that, but what I'm saying is we can't just turn 16 and it's a free for all, like we cannot.
Mandy Majors:I'm not going to argue what the right age is. I think every kid is ready at different ages. I don't think any kid should have social media under 14. I think, at the minimum, right, but it should be earning one platform at a time and it should be learning with the parent one-on-one, and it should be, you know, monitoring all the things together. So so that's what, um, that that's the real distinction here.
Mandy Majors:On his, on his recommendations, and he has some other recommendations that we're going to get to first, one of the things I want to talk about before we get to his other recommendations are, just like, four key things that he says technology is doing to our kids, and I want to run through these pretty fast because I feel like we know that these are hurtful to our kids. But he says harm number one is social deprivation. We know that, like since 2016,. We've been talking about have the conversations with your kids. People are greater than screens. You should be having this conversation before they earn their first social media platform. They should know the dangers of social media before they get their first social media platform. So your kid's guard is up. So we talk about that a lot. You know one of our main rules no screens behind closed doors. Yeah, no screens behind closed doors. We've had that recommendation that has never it's been the same consistent.
Kim Elerick:Yeah, Not behind closed doors. Bedrooms or bathrooms yeah, absolutely.
Mandy Majors:And I did like that he pointed out, cause I feel like we're the only organization that kind of really talks about this, and he also did. He said there is a difference, though, between playing online with friends and playing solo, and we talk about that a lot Like if your kid especially during COVID we talked about that right, if your kids are on a screen and they're talking to their buddies from school, that's a little bit different kind of screen time. I mean, that's almost like a virtual meetup of friends, a virtual hangout that they do now. I used to call it a virtual playgroup, and my kids said that is so cringe as they got older, but just recognizing that there's more danger when your kid is alone in a room by themselves, and so that's why we recommend that no kids should be alone in a room by themselves with a. So that's why we recommend that no kids should be alone in a room by themselves with a screen. That's just one of our standing guidelines, absolutely.
Kim Elerick:Also, the second thing he mentions is harm number two sleep deprivation. And this is something I think we gloss over sometimes because we're like oh, they're fine, they're laying in bed, they went into their bedroom and they're resting. If your kid is taking their phone or their device into their room and they're laying down with it, that's a relaxation time and they're staying up late. They are in front of that blue screen, number one. Number two they're interacting until who knows how late into the night, and then also it's not allowing them to get the eight plus hours that they need to be healthy and it's a big harm for their health.
Mandy Majors:Well, this is another one that I was, you know, in my margin scribbling. I couldn't say the right word Next talk, next talk.
Mandy Majors:Because from day one we have said no screens at bedtime and follow the American Academy of Pediatrics recommendations that screens go off 30 minutes before bedtime. We need we all need our brain needs to decompress all the information we're taking on so many times. We laid out on the couch and scrolling is resting. That is not resting. We're taking in the next debate the current events. That is not letting your soul rest. So we have to be good models of that for our kids. But again, another recommendation that we've always had from the beginning no phones during bedtime. Okay, number three I just want to kind of attention fragmentation. I mean, this is just we know.
Kim Elerick:It's horrible, but we know.
Mandy Majors:We're distracted from our phones, the constant pe ping. He did bring in some ADHD research that I thought was really good there about attention spans. But we all kind of know this. We are less plugged in with our family when we're on our phones. We pick up our phone, we're in a conversation and my watch pings, so I look at it and then it tells this person that I'm right next to you, you're not as important because I'm distracted. So we all know this. This has been an ongoing conversation at Next Talk.
Kim Elerick:Yeah, and number four addiction. Again, something we have talked about before very many times at Next Talk. Not just addiction, but stronghold, and that's kind of the differentiation that we've really tried to put out there for parents is that a lot of us I think Mandy and I both would say, at different times in our life we've had a stronghold with our phones and we've had to talk through it with our kids. Where you're struggling with your time with media, Understanding that and explaining it to your kids and also when has it become addictive is something we need to be aware of. And he covers that and gives some really great points, like a list of things to look for to see is my kid addicted? Do I need to seek help? And I thought that was really helpful.
Mandy Majors:Yeah, he even quotes another book from Dopamine Nation where he quotes that author, and this is the quote the smartphone is the modern day hypodermic needle delivering digital dopamine 24-7 for a wired generation. I think that's a great quote. I do like the distinction that Nextop makes versus what he made in his book about the stronghold versus addiction. Yeah, and I don't think he covered this. But one of the things we tell the parents is you have to be careful not to overuse that word addiction, just like we overuse the word bullying because it loses its power, or racism, something very serious, we don't want to overuse it because then it loses its power. And he didn't make that distinction about overusing the word addiction.
Mandy Majors:And so, parents, what I want to tell you is because I've been guilty of this Do not yell at your kid and tell them they're addicted when they can't turn off the Xbox, because then you're creating a label for your child, right, what we want to say to your child is, once they're away from the Xbox, we want to say to them hey, I get it, my phone has a stronghold on me too, but I think that Xbox has a stronghold on you and I think we need to be really on guard here, because a stronghold can turn into an addiction and an addiction is very serious.
Mandy Majors:So that way you're you're not labeling your kid, you're not overusing that word, but you're making them aware. We want to create an aversion to what an addiction is so that they don't move in that direction. And it's perfectly okay that we it's all. We all have a stronghold. Screens have a stronghold on us, but we all need to be aware of it, have a healthy balance and make sure we don't let it spiral into an addiction. And I really like how Next Talk has handled that, and I wish I would have seen a little bit more of that in the book when he did talk about addiction.
Kim Elerick:Well, yeah, I think it's really important. You know he talks about one of the things that we can do to help with the development of our kids is more conversation, and that's really the next talk model is more conversation about things like that what is a stronghold? What am I looking for with an addiction? What am I looking for with all of these different things that he's bringing up? That's when we get to do that in those conversations.
Mandy Majors:Yeah, so another part of the book that I really liked he separated out girls and boys and how technology is impacting both of them.
Kim Elerick:I thought this was so good I thought he was very brave in this canceled culture world.
Mandy Majors:I thought I was like I was thinking all of your atheist friends are not gonna like this, but you are separating this.
Mandy Majors:Yes, I thought it was so good with the genders, um, but I thought it was really good. He talked about girls being more impacted with social media things we've always said. Of course there are exceptions, but generally girls and I loved what he said. He said they are more relational, they struggle with perfectionism, popularity and that kind of stuff and that is why social media is impacting them more. And then he talks. He was very brave, he. I was waiting for him to bring up gender dysphoria and he did so.
Mandy Majors:I want to give you credit here, Jonathan Hyatt, if you're listening. I know this was not easy for you, Um, but I really appreciated when you talked about gender dysphoria, the increase in gender clinics, gender dysphoria and it happening in social clusters. I think that is the thing that is very controversial, that we're saying it's pure. Some kids are feeling this from peer pressure. Obviously, at Next Talk, we're always saying of course there are real kids who struggle with gender dysphoria, Absolutely, and we want to default to love always and treat everybody with love and kindness, like that is who we are at. Next, on, default to love is a trademark statement, right, but we cannot ignore that. This is like a social contagion. It is peer pressure. It has become trendy to be trans and we can't ignore that as parents, that that is a conversation that we have to have.
Mandy Majors:So I guess in the book what I said, what I want to say about what he said about gender dysphoria. I give him props for bringing it up. I feel like it should have been a much bigger chapter. Of course, yeah, it should have been a much bigger chapter, but you know you can go read Abigail Shires. We've done thing and Abigail Shires is not a Christian either. Jonathan Hyatt's not. We really love learning from non-Christians and taking it in and helping us. But the research she did on the gender movement I've seen nothing like that and I don't agree with everything that Abigail says in her book.
Kim Elerick:obviously because I'm a Christian.
Mandy Majors:It's called Irreversible Damage. We'll link it, we can link it to the show, but it's a great book and it really dives into the gender dysphoria and so I think I think Jonathan Hyatt's book with coupled with Abigail Shire's book talking about the impact on our girls and technology, I think is really powerful.
Kim Elerick:I think you're right, those two together and I knew. I knew you'd be fired up about that. I knew it. Um, I was a little more fired up about the the part about boys he acknowledged a lot of things about boys.
Kim Elerick:I mean I have two boys and a girl, but I really do feel like boys um, he addressed it really well and I don't feel like that's talked about a lot lately, especially in conjunction with social media and with cultural trends and experiencing different things that nowadays boys are not experiencing, like having to call a girl and ask her out on a date or in person talking to her, working through things, even just the, the male male on male kind of I don't want to say aggression, but I mean I have two boys.
Mandy Majors:They fight it out.
Kim Elerick:Yeah, they fight it out, they argue. You know, they fall from the trees. Like we talked about earlier, my son falling off his bike earlier this week and thought it was hilarious and he's like all beat up and you know I'm being a mama like oh gosh and he's like it's fine as he's bleeding everywhere. We're missing the opportunity for our boys to learn how to deal with adversity in relationships, in just their day-to-day life, in all of their struggles, and we see that in society, in our men now.
Mandy Majors:Well, you know a couple things in this section. I knew you'd be fired up about it. It reminded me of our show we did over the summer with Brian Montgomery where he said boys sometimes need to fight Like they're not fighting each other Like where's the good old?
Mandy Majors:you know, um, and and Jonathan Haidt actually quotes research where he's saying boys are having fewer physical fights. Now some of us think that's a good thing Like I think that's a good thing, but I do think there's a point to be made, that that working it out amongst each other, the peers I think that was his kind of um, what he was trying to drive home there, these kids like they would, they used to leave in the morning and be gone all day and if they came, had a conflict or had adversity, they had to figure it out. Yeah, and we're losing that because of the safetyism. And I thought that was really powerful. The other thing I loved all the boys section.
Mandy Majors:I do think he missed a couple of key points here, talking about how feminism and toxic patriarchy has kind of the culture of that has impacted boys. And again, I think this is a cultural thing that probably he was a little scared to speak into. But I do think you know, we do need to recognize that on social media, men are looked down on and they're looked at from these aggressors and then what we're doing is we're seeing men be less leaders in the home right, less strong, healthy leadership because they're. They're timid now, and so I do think he's onto something there. I don't have all the answers, but I feel like there was a conversation there with feminism and toxic patriarchy that we kind of missed in this.
Kim Elerick:Well, that book was already so big, I mean come?
Mandy Majors:on.
Kim Elerick:I will tell you that has been an ongoing conversation in our home with our youngest, our daughter. All of her. You know little kids show she just turned 10. The men, the husbands, are foolish. I mean absolutely.
Mandy Majors:The characters on the TV shows.
Kim Elerick:Yes, like none of them really know how to do anything. They're always fumbling and bumbling and not good leaders, and the women have to take charge and that has just become kind of the norm, and so absolutely, we're raising up these girls to expect that the husbands can't lead and we're showing an example of men who don't.
Mandy Majors:Yeah. So I totally agree with you on that it's creating this toxic environment for men not to have confidence and, of course, there are men who are abusive and have bad leadership skills. We're talking about healthy leadership in our men, and we need that in the home and in our world. Um and so you know, I just I think that was a whole conversation.
Kim Elerick:I think that could be a whole book actually and I will say just what I and I don't mean to circle back here to an earlier point, but I think it's important One of the things that has helped me as a mom who is a nurturer, with the overprotectedness, is my husband stepping up and saying no, you need to let them go. Let them go ride their bike by themselves, let them go out and play, and so those roles have really helped in our home.
Mandy Majors:I'm so glad you mentioned that because I you know, now that my kids are 17 and 20, I have really come to appreciate my husband and the gifts he has brought to the table in parenting. So many times when we have an issue, I'll want to sit down and, like logically, talk it out. And sometimes he's like no, we're going to go play basketball, we're going to get all the anger out. Then we'll have the conversation Right, and so men bring specific gifts to the family and moms and dads have different roles, and I think he was hitting on that here without saying it because he was celebrating the differences of both of them, and so I thought that was really good.
Mandy Majors:I do want to mention in this boy's section he does briefly mention gambling and video games. I think this could have been a bigger conversation. I see over and over again the ingraining of gambling into video games and so I do think that could have been a bigger conversation. He did say too about about video games, which I thought this was really good. He said I don't have anything that says stay away from video games altogether. Yeah, and I felt like he was a more like we are at next talk with the video game thing, kind of like um, you know, it's a balance. Of course you're not gonna let your 10 year old play call of duty like that's too much violence too fast, but being able to monitor them. He said it's when it gets unmonitored and they get into all kinds of content and they're solo with a screen playing video games all day that it becomes a problem, and I really liked that section.
Kim Elerick:Yeah, I thought that was good too. Um, I do want to say with the gambling, that is something that is newer on the radar there as far as with our kids, and I have noticed lately in a lot of the games, gambling is kind of, um, gambling it comes across in a way that is not as straightforward. So you really need to pay attention to the games that your kids are playing. It's not like money necessarily, but gambling tendencies boxes, boxes or trading cards or all of these different things, and so when we say gambling, I just want to make sure that you understand that that's what we mean. It is that that type of behavior of needing the next thing, one more, one extra, so you can do this extra thing, and so it. I think that is an important component to the gaming conversation.
Mandy Majors:Yeah, okay, now we're going to get into the my favorite part of it.
Kim Elerick:Oh, I know the God shaped hole. Yes.
Mandy Majors:So good. He talks about a 1662 French philosopher called it the God shaped hole in the human heart. And what he's saying here is there's a spiritual component to all of this, like what kids need in their development, right? Yes, and it was so cool because he said I believe he is right, I believe this French philosopher was right, we have a God shaped hole. This is how he talks about it, on page 216. He says there's a hole, an emptiness in us all that we all strive to fill. I think this is just a really powerful moment because he says my Christian friends, my religious friends, disagree with me on how the God-shaped hole got in our heart. So he believes that through evolution, that we evolved different than animals and there was a select process not getting into all of it which created this thing in our heart, which is kind of like a soul.
Mandy Majors:You know, I'm defining it as a soul is what I would say. That's how we're different than animals. We're, we're, we have a soul we have, and so, but you know, of course, as Christians he said my religious friends believe this that God created us that way because we long for our creator. Right, there's a spot that can only Jesus can fill. He didn't say it that way, that's me saying it, but I loved this so much because, as he's talking about the God shaped whole, this is what he says. It matters what we expose ourselves to. Yes, it matters. And you guys, in my mind, all I could think about was Proverbs 423. Guard your heart above all else, because everything you do flows from it, like God is the solution.
Mandy Majors:As I'm reading this section from this atheist, I'm thinking God is the solution, god is the solution. God is the solution, right? Yes, but I loved the way he said it.
Kim Elerick:I was just really surprised.
Mandy Majors:I had so much respect for him yes, it's almost like I was like oh, I want to be your friend now Because you know what I can, so appreciate people that don't believe the same way I believe, as long as they don't disrespect, have a respectful conversation. Yes, it's like you acknowledge that there is something there Like I don't believe it's the same thing.
Kim Elerick:Right. But there's something.
Mandy Majors:But there's not this. You're stupid for believing that way. That's where I get so turned off and why I think the world is so divisive. But I appreciated so much that he didn't like trash talk, christians or religious people and I loved that. I just have so much respect for him because of that.
Kim Elerick:Me too. I thought that was, I was surprised by it, like I said, and I thought it was really encouraging because I think it opens the window for any reader, any reader, to say, okay, I feel that and as a Christian, I know what that is or not. As a Christian, what am I filling my heart with? And we have a team member that has always said, like, be careful what you let inside your windows. And I've shared that with my kids since they were little, little little and it's so true Music videos, whatever you're watching, it has a more effect on you than you realize. And so when we're filling our hearts with scripture or whatever it is, it makes a difference.
Mandy Majors:Well, and when I wrote talk I was saying it's like the slow ingraining, the slow drip of ingraining information that you're that's moving you away from Jesus and you have to be aware of that.
Kim Elerick:But I love that.
Mandy Majors:Also. He quotes research. That this is quotes. He says people who break bread together have a lot.
Kim Elerick:I loved that yes.
Mandy Majors:You guys I was. You know what I was writing in my margins Jesus is the bread. He's the bread in the life. Last supper yes, I'm thinking about the last supper and how Jesus looked at his disciples and said this is my body broken for you? Like, I am the bread? And I just was like, wow, once again.
Mandy Majors:We always see where science lines up with God's word and we point that out all the time just how babies are made and mom and dad, you know, complimenting each other.
Mandy Majors:And really, if you think about it, marriage is so diverse because God is saying we're taking two different things here and joining them together. Right, it's a diverse thing the way God created marriage, and so I just it was so cool to see he talks about religious communities and he talks about Christians, but he also talks about Muslims. Yeah, different, he doesn't just single out Christians. But I loved how he said every week they're getting together to sing songs, dancing, worship the same God, so there's unity in that belief. We're not on phones and there's that community, that building. And he said we're creating a trusted village kind of thing where he says in society we're missing that because now we're calling child protective services on each other when we see each other and we don't trust other adults because of the bad news. So he was painting this picture that you're still getting that in community at a religious and he said it's a good thing.
Mandy Majors:He said religious and sports communities were the two really good places where kids are getting that community, face-to-face, village mentality. And I just kept thinking about the acts to church. Yeah, like wow, again, you know, breaking bread together, fellowshipping together, worshiping together, carrying it, like carrying each other's burdens. Like God knew that, that we need community, that our hearts long for community. And now we have this atheist saying kids need that.
Kim Elerick:I loved that so much Well, and I'll be honest with you, just the very small takeaway from that. You just beautifully, beautifully summarized it, but my very small takeaway from that you just beautifully beautifully summarized it, but my very small takeaway is that one of the biggest things that I want to walk away from this book with is that it's not that difficult Like community, breaking bread together, letting my kids play outside, conversation, the things that are like the building blocks of our society, that we have set aside in some ways because we're giving it up for this digital interface. That's the answer, you know. Jesus, yes, and just a simple connection with people, and so I thought that was very encouraging. It wasn't some like fancy answer.
Mandy Majors:I was when I was writing in my margins I said get yourself to a local church, get plugged in, get outside. We've said that over and over. Get to know your neighbors. There's value in all of that. He also says there's no evidence that suggests prayer can change outcomes. But he said, and I quote, there is abundant evidence that keeping up certain spiritual practice improves well-being.
Kim Elerick:Yes.
Mandy Majors:I kept thinking about when he said that, the peace that surpasses all understanding. Like we are filled with the Holy Spirit, with the peace, and he's seeing, from a researcher and a psychologist, the impact of that. My favorite quote in my 35 years of studying moral psychology, I have come to see this as one of humanity's greatest problems. We are too quick to anger and too slow to forgive. I mean James 119,. We're quoting it all day long, our favorite parenting verse.
Kim Elerick:I know, I know it's just so interesting that he's not a Christian and yet so much of what he says is the solution is Jesus, so James 119,.
Mandy Majors:We quote that.
Mandy Majors:We have it on shirts, hats whatever we can put it on, we think it's our favorite parenting verse quick to listen, slow to speak and slow to get angry. And in his 35 years of studying moral psychology as an atheist, he says one of humanity's greatest problems is we are too quick to anger. That's a word right there. Like that is amazing. I also thought of Ephesians 4, 32, be kind and compassionate to one another, forgiving each other. Just in Christ, god forgave you. And I kept thinking about how we always tell parents if your kid messes up, if they choose something that you don't agree with, unconditional love, like. Just like Jesus gives to to us. Like that is the way I love you. The same. And I, just as I'm reading it, I was reading this section at like 2 am and I had my highlighter out and I was like a benning and my husband rolled over. He's like what are you doing? I'm like this is so good. Highlighting it all over, it was so good. I just adored this whole section.
Kim Elerick:Well I think too, in the political climate, yeah, and what we see in our college campuses and our high schools and social media, it just resonates so much to hear from someone who is not a Christian saying this is the answer.
Mandy Majors:This is the answer.
Kim Elerick:That's what made an impact on me. I was like he's saying the same thing. That's so good Well.
Mandy Majors:I'm glad you brought up college too, because he's a professor in NYU and I loved what he said about college campuses. He said there's been a shift from discover mode to defend mode. Yes, that was a great quote, because I see that on social media.
Mandy Majors:It's more of just you. This is what I believe. I'm defending it, I'm arguing with you and there's this lack of communication. We're all guilty of it, all of us, but this, just you believe that way, so I'm not going to be your friend and I hate you, yeah, like that is. So. Let's not do that, guys. Let's not do that. And I thought he did it beautifully and he, he did it great.
Kim Elerick:Yeah, I really loved that quote. I made me think of our partner counselor, jamie Mershon, when she says like be curious, that doesn't just apply to your family, but your friends on campus. Like it's okay to not agree, but being curious is very different than defending in a way that's like argumentative, combative and divisive. Yeah, and that's where we're at, and so everybody's angry all the time. There we are.
Mandy Majors:So that's kind of like his book, but he rolls out a couple like other than waiting to get social media until 16, he rolls out some other things.
Kim Elerick:Yes.
Mandy Majors:Practical things that he says we can do, because obviously we're in a problem here. Yeah, we've had a great rewiring of childhood, we've increased screens, we've decreased community and creative play and all of this and so what can we do collectively, like collective action to reel this back in a bit? Okay, and there were some things here that were really good. Here he mentions COPPA, and this is the child children online privacy protection act. This was passed in the nineties when the internet phase was happening Okay, this is before smartphones and so what was happening was kids' information was being sold online you know, their privacy information like their name, their address, stuff like that to marketing companies and people were like, wait a minute, kids can't consent to that. This is a new day and age. And so they passed this legislation.
Mandy Majors:I thought this was really good because this is what he said on it's. This is all on page 234, but he said when COPPA was being written into law, there was a compromise made that 13 would be the age of consent. This is really important, guys. This is a quote from the book. It says that decision had nothing to do with adolescent brain development or maturity. It was just a political compromise. That's all. It was not based on science and the Senator who even drafted this initial legislation. He later admitted and the author quotes him in this book. This is what the senator said it was too young, and I knew it was too young then. It was the best I could do to get the law passed. I want us to pause for a moment, because what I have been seeing is a parental rights issue across the board, right, and all I keep seeing is that kids at age 13 can consent not only to online stuff, but to gender surgeries. This is a conversation within the gender lobbyist, and so what has happened was I knew all of this history, but the way he worded it out, a light bulb went off in my brain that, oh my gosh, this is why the age of consent has been pushed down to 13.
Mandy Majors:I think this is a moment for all of us, because governmental laws matter. They send a message to our government, to our families, to our children, about what's right and wrong, and I think that's why it's so important that Christians vote. I mean, you have to vote your beliefs Now. Does that mean that we're always going to get our way and we always want to have everybody listening to the Christian way. No, that's not going to be. The Bible even says some things are going to be legal that aren't spiritually okay. The Bible says that.
Mandy Majors:So but I think this is such a moment where we have to realize like laws matter and it sends messages and laws trickle down to other things because this is now impacting who can get hormone blockers without parent consent. So we have a battle going on with parental rights that we need to be aware of. And he didn't present it like that because it's not going to be popular, but that's my take on it that when he was presenting this about that age, I was like this is the whole, um, this is the biggest battle that I feel like parents face, because now kids can literally in certain states, use pronouns, get on hormone blockers without a parent's consent, and I grew up in the generation like the nurse couldn't give me a Tylenol without calling my mom. So it has very much shifted and we have to understand why and how and we need to tackle that problem.
Kim Elerick:Well, and the law has not changed with the times. The law has not changed with the times. So we're looking at 13 years old to be able to make these huge decisions and it has to be revisited, and that's something he talks about a little bit in the book. But I think you're right, Mandy. I mean, he didn't delve into that. I knew that you would.
Mandy Majors:You knew when you were reading it.
Kim Elerick:I know where she's going to go with this, this is a bigger conversation than just what he said, and that's the thing. You know that where my mind went is that, even when it's a law that even you know can sometimes feel like it's separate from you, like, oh there's this law and I heard about it. As parents, when we're feeling unsure about all these new things like technology or whatever it is, we will often defer to things like that. You know, oh well, you're 13 and the law says that you can do it, and so it does have a big impact. You know it has a big impact on parents, you know, on these bigger decisions down the line, and when the law is not changed over a very long time, it's a big issue.
Mandy Majors:Yeah, and he did talk about the Kids Online Safety Act. You guys have heard a lot about that. Yeah, that is a new law to um replace what coppa does or supplement and so update it, basically. But let me tell you something there's compromise because there's always compromise on laws and you don't always get everything that you want, and so, again, it sends messages, just like, just like coppa did. Um one of the things he said too, as far as government he said he went. He talked about this idea of age verification.
Kim Elerick:Yes.
Mandy Majors:And I've always been a big proponent of that, especially on porn sites. I think there needs to be age verification and I understand the the conversation or the debate of the other side who says, well, they can lie about their birthday. I get that, but it makes a kid pause and actually enter something and make a choice to lie before entering that site. At least it's something before just popping up. But he even went a kind of deeper into this. That I loved and I actually had not thought about and this was really good. He said you know, just like when you can go into your Apple and use screen time and you can say only download PG 13 movies and books, whatever, and you can monitor that.
Mandy Majors:What he says is is there a place where we can governmentally regulate going into that parental restriction and marking this device is for a minor? I loved that. Yeah, I loved that so much because then you're marking the device for the minor, you don't have to worry about each platform. Each platform would then be restricted for certain ages. I thought that was brilliant. Here's a quote that he said about that. As he's summing all that up, he said why not just expand the ability so a parent's choice is respected by all platforms for which age restrictions are appropriate or required by law. I agree with him a hundred percent. Here's the thing I don't think the lobbyists are going to agree to it, because they don't want to designate it a minor, because they are telling our kids that you can do your own thing.
Mandy Majors:There's this separation of at 13, you can do whatever you want, and there's this wedge being drawn between parents and kids that's being pushed on by these lobbyists, and so we have a whole situation on our hands and nobody's really talking about that, like they should be. But that is a big deal. And his book, even though he didn't go into this level of detail, it highlighted that for me, like the confirmation of what I've been seeing over the past couple of years.
Kim Elerick:I think this is really great because we are legally responsible for our kids, like that is our job, and so why are our rights being taken away? Why is that separation dividing? And I know, you know, people will always say follow the money, and that's true. You know, with the apps and with the different major providers of our technology, that's always going to be an issue. So I can see how this might be something that would, uh, with a lobbyist, not go far, but I think it's a really great idea.
Mandy Majors:Yeah, I mean, listen, when they lower the age of consent, they can create consumers of our kids earlier so they can push products on them that we have no access to and this is the real battle here that we have not addressed. But the parental rights stuff will trickle down and you need to be watching all of these bills for the age of consent. Okay, so he had some good stuff there and of course, I added my take on it, because that's who I am. I love it. That was great. Okay, schools he thinks all schools should go phone free. I completely agree.
Kim Elerick:I mean, I think that would be great. You will get two sides of any argument there that you know. Yes, you can go phone free, but kids are going to find a way to sneak it. So I think each school needs to figure out how to implement that but, more importantly, how to reinforce it. Enforcement is the key. That is the key.
Mandy Majors:So many school districts tell me that they are phone free, when they're actually not phone free. Yeah, they are not. They say that, but they don't.
Kim Elerick:There's no discipline, and so if you're going to say it, you got to enforce it. Your words have to matter, so don't have it if you're not going to enforce it. Well, and also, let's add in there that parents also have to be a part of the solution. If you are not enforcing it at home, this is the rule at school, you need to follow the rules. Then the kids go in thinking, ah, I can do what I want to do, so it is a partnership there.
Mandy Majors:And school districts. Whether you're going phone free or not, this cannot be missed. Kids should not be using phones in the locker rooms or the bathrooms, and if they are caught taking pictures or videos in either, it is an automatic, like you know what's going to happen to you Automatic, automatic disciplinary thing. We have worked so many cases where kids have been body shamed because kids are taking selfies in the locker room and posting them to Snapchat and somebody's in the background. So we've got to get this under control. This is just pressure that our kids don't need to be under and, honestly, we need to make sure kids understand boundaries with phones. This is again. We talk about boundaries all the time at Next Talk Kids. A red flag alert needs to go off in their brain saying when I'm dressing, I shouldn't be in front of a phone, I shouldn't have my phone out, and we've blurred those boundaries because they're in locker rooms and bathrooms and it just shouldn't be Sleepovers too. You know, I was recently speaking at a school that was really phone free.
Mandy Majors:They were enforced it and they were really phone free. And what was so cool about the school is they said we still want you to come speak to our parents. And I was so excited because I was like you get it. So many people think if we take the phones away, it's going to solve the problem. Listen, it will be a step in the right direction and I'm for it. Yes, yes, yes. But hear me, we are dealing more than just phones. We have an overexposed, sexualized, broken world and whether kids have access to phones or not, they're going to hear this content. They're going to hear it on the playground from other kids who watched the phone the night before. That's exactly how my kid got exposed to porn. Right, no phones were even present, but it was through a conversation at school because a kid had watched it the night before. So, hear me, I'm all for phone-free schools but it doesn't eliminate the problem of the overexposed, broken world.
Mandy Majors:So it's like take down the phone and keep the conversations going.
Kim Elerick:I love that you presented that, mandy, because it's so important and I think it's good for people to know. Our tagline here at Next Talk used to be keeping kids safe online, but we recently had to change it because we're trying to also keep up with the way that the world is changing. So, keeping kids safe in an overexposed world, because they can be exposed in so many different ways it's not just with technology and so we needed to update that, and we need people to have that realization that your kids are going to be overexposed because of our broken world.
Mandy Majors:Our fight is not against flesh and blood, but of the dark powers of the world Satan, right, the, the. The problem of raising kids today. Yes, phones contribute it to a lot of it, but if they all go away, we still have a very sexualized culture that we're raising our kids in, that we have to disciple them in, and so that is really what we're talking about here.
Mandy Majors:He also lays out a section on what parents can do, and we're going to wrap it up here, but you know, he talks about a gardener, a parent being a gardener, which I thought was really sweet.
Mandy Majors:It reminded me of our kite string analogy that we always use around here at Next Talk. He says to be a good role model, which we have said all the time. One of the things that I wrote in my book was when my kids were little. I would create a guideline from five to eight for me that I was on my phone so I could be more present with my kids. If you guys know that embarrassing story as to what led me to that, you know you've been around for a while, but I I made a major mistake as a mom when I had to set boundaries for myself.
Mandy Majors:And so I thought that was good. Of course, free and creative play he says no screens at bedtime, just like we do, so I thought that was good. Connecting with your kid, building the relationships. There was some things here that I disagreed with. Like he said, free for all on the sleepovers I mean I'm not against sleepovers, but I do think you need to be very careful because a lot of these kids that your kids are having sleepovers with are watching porn, and so that creates a blurred boundary, and that wasn't the case 20 or 30 years ago. And so, again, there's more education about staying safe in a sleepover if you're going to choose that route. And so you know there were some things there. Safetyism, like I agree, we cannot helicopter. I mean, that's one of our big things about trying to let the kite string out is not helicopter, and that sort of thing. Again, we live in a very different world than we did when we were growing up.
Kim Elerick:I feel like his word safetyism where I saw it a little bit differently is yes, we want to let our kids go out and play and experience and have all of those um moments that are not on a screen. Yes, but we have to parent them more than we did before, and I think that's that kind of in between that he didn't explain very well which is conversation which is next.
Mandy Majors:Which is next, which is next talk? You know, and I thought about to the safety ism thing. Our red flag alert system is really good for that. So if you don't know what that is, go to our website and search red flag and there will be a downloadable that comes up. But basically it's things you're talking to your elementary kid about and you're saying to them if these things pop up, a red flag alert should go off in your brain to tell me Okay and so, for example, one of them in that list is if you ever hear a new word, phrase or idea and you're like I wonder what that means, that's a red flag alert to go ask mom or dad. Right, and we tell our kids from a very early age the information you get online may not be accurate. The information you get from your friends may not be accurate. So I'm your source, I'm your Google, I'm your Siri, I'm your AI bot. Right, we are the solution.
Mandy Majors:As I was reading this book, who knew a psychologist who is an atheist, that God would use him to renew my spirit and my mission for next talk? Yeah, because I was. As I was reading the book, I just kept thinking all those years ago when I first started on this journey and I was a young mom kid exposed to porn. How am I going to parent all this Right? And God led me to the solution in Deuteronomy 6, 6 and 7. Right Talk on the go, when you're at home, when you're getting up and going to bed Four key times to create a culture of conversation in your home where no topic is off limits. I just was laying there in the middle of the night finishing that book, thinking God is the solution. He's the solution not only for phones. He's the solution for the overexposed, sexualized culture.
Kim Elerick:Everything that you said, everything. The one thing that I would add that I thought was so cool is it was a reminder of things that I was feeling in my gut. You know that you just sometimes get caught up in this world and what we should be doing and thinking and where the world is going, and it was just a reminder of some of those basics. And then also the next talk mission, like you said. Here's all these facts and figures and incredible data that he spent so much time putting together, and then his solution over here that was very much like no this and yes this and do this, and I kept thinking where is the in between? And it was next talk and so, yes, the same that you're saying. It just was like oh, that's right, this is who we are. We're in that space. Empowering our families, our kids and those that we come in contact with. Jesus is the solution. Talk with your kids, create a culture of conversation and it's going to be okay.
Mandy Majors:So here we are. We're ready for season eight. Let's go Nex Talk. This podcast is ad free because of all the people who donate to our nonprofit.
Kim Elerick:Donation today at nextalkorg. This podcast is not intended to replace the advice of a trained healthcare or legal professional, or to diagnose, treat or otherwise render expert advice regarding any type of medical, psychological or legal problem.
Mandy Majors:Listeners are advised to.