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How do we keep our kids safe online? How do we protect our children in an overexposed, sexualized culture?
Join Mandy Majors (award-winning author of "TALK" and "Keeping Kids Safe in a Digital World") for real conversations about the intersection of tech, culture and faith.
nextTalk is a 501(c)(3) nonprofit organization keeping kids safe by creating a culture of open communication in families, churches and schools.
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Childhood Sexual Abuse: The story of an adult male survivor
A husband and dad of three little girls shares his sexual abuse story. He was 11 years old when it first happened but didn't recognize it as abuse until many years later. Learn about the unique path he finally found on his road to healing and the number one thing he believes all survivors need to hear from whomever they share their story with.
KEEPING KIDS SAFE ONLINE
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Welcome to the next Talk podcast, where we share real stories and practical advice for parenting the digital world.
Kim Elerick:We're your hosts, Mandi and Kim. Mandi is an award-winning author and the founder of next Talk, and I'm the director of Next Talk, a nonprofit organization created to strengthen families through open communication. You can check out all of our resources at nextTalk. org.
Mandy :We're wives, moms and friends tackling culturally relevant topics from a Christian perspective. We're sharing what we've learned and where we failed. We're so glad you're here for this conversation. We are continuing our sexual abuse series today a very heavy and much needed topic and today we have a special guest on the show. This is, you guys know, Jamie Mershon. She's one of our beloved partner counselors at next Talk. She's been on our show before. She helps educate us so much on how to talk to our kids about mental health and just like triaging stuff at home as we're waiting to get into a counselor or in between counseling appointments, like that's like Jamie's gift. Well, today we have her husband, Michael, on the show and I want to welcome him, Michael.
Michael Mershon:Hi, thanks so much for having me.
Mandy :Tell us a little bit about you and you and Jamie. You guys have how many kids, and you're in the thick of it right now.
Michael Mershon:Yeah, we have, uh, three girls. God bless us with three beautiful little girls, Um, pretty close together, uh, between nine and six person to be six, um, she's already calling herself six, but we're not quite there yet. So nine and five technically, uh, but yeah, very, um blessed to be married to Jamie and have and five technically, but yeah, very blessed to be married to Jamie and have three beautiful kids. We married a little over 11 years now. It has been lots of ups and downs, but God has brought us through it so far.
Speaker 4:Well, michael, we've worked with Jamie for a while now, but some years back I think it was over two years ago Mandy and I just felt this pull to discuss this subject.
Speaker 4:You know abuse and then what that looks like, because a lot of times the focus is on girls, and you had shared your story a little bit with me and Jamie on the phone. We talked through it and we wanted to have you on the show and things just kept happening and changes kept happening within our organization. And then you know, just overall and the timing was never quite right, which you know looking back now, I know God was still doing a work in your life and you know, as far as the subject being so needed to be addressed, it has just increased in that demand and what we're seeing socially in our organization, and so now the time is right and you were like, yes, yes, I will do it, and I just you're so brave for taking the time to be transparent and share your story to help other people, and so we want to thank you for sticking with us these past few years until God's timing versus our timing.
Michael Mershon:Absolutely. It's been a journey over the last couple of years, you know, so I can see clearly why that was not the right time, and I feel much more peace about doing it right now. So I'm excited to see what God has to do with this.
Speaker 4:Yeah, me too.
Mandy :So tell our listeners, michael and you've kind of walked us through this you were a victim of childhood sexual abuse, but when did you recognize that? When did you identify it as this was abuse? Because I think that's the beginning of realizing this has happened and now I have to deal with it, I have to process this trauma.
Michael Mershon:Yeah this has happened and now I have to deal with it, I have to process this trauma. Yeah, so for me it happened when I was 11 years old and I first identified it about seven years ago, so I would have been about 33 at the time. It was something that I was somewhat conscious of but at the same time was deeply suppressed in a lot of ways. So I'd say seven years ago is kind of when it kind of fully hit me that, hey, this is actually what happened and the gravity and the reality of what you know that abuse was and being even being able to call it abuse at that point was probably the first time I had ever done that.
Speaker 4:I do remember you saying when we were talking before, just the ability to say it out loud was a huge step, because it sounds like there were moments, maybe, that you knew something had happened or wrong, but being able to verbalize it and explain it is a whole other step.
Michael Mershon:Absolutely For me. I guess it became real at that point, or saying it out loud and made it real. So as long as it lived in my head and I didn't actually tell anybody then, to some degree it it never really became real, um, but once it got to a point where it was just kind of um, too much for me to contain and I actually said it out loud for the first time, that's, you know, I would say, when it became truly real and something that I actually started dealing with, as opposed to just trying to manage in my own head, kind of thing.
Mandy :So can you tell us what happened between the process of realizing it in your head and speaking it out loud, and what that was like for you, like how, what triggered it, what, what brought up memories, like what, what happened there and then and then? How long was it before you actually told someone, and who? Who did you tell first and who did?
Michael Mershon:you tell first yeah, so it was a slow process for me personally, from basically having glimpses of situations come up or little you know like pictures of a whole event, so it would be like one snapshot of it that would come up and I wouldn't be enough context to necessarily really put any.
Michael Mershon:You put any words to it other than this doesn't really make sense. So it was probably a good year of that. We were walking with another friend of ours that had been through a similar abuse situation and just hearing some of her stories and some of the things she went through started to trigger these memories in me. And it was probably a 12 or 18 month period between having that kind of first initial memory and actually being able to say it out loud for the first time. And it was a very slow trickle of one memory happening and then maybe another piece of that same memory coming up, and sometimes it would be days, sometimes it'd be weeks apart. But eventually it's more things and more things began bubbling to the surface, to the point where I started to put together some context of what had actually happened, to put together some context of what had actually happened, and even at that point it was probably a good six or eight months before I actually said anything. You know out loud and the first person I told in my situation was my wife Jamie.
Speaker 4:I think this part of your story is very important. I just want to rewind a little bit because so often with an abuse victim, people will say, well, why didn't they say anything right away? Or how is it? Now they're 30 something and just suddenly remembering and Jamie has spoken about this to us before about it's a self preservation. You know, it's a coping mechanism, suppressing those types of things, and the fact that it started to trickle back is normal, like that's something. You know, the body, the brain, is trying to function in the world and so it suppresses those memories. So I think that story, that version of that, is common and I think parents need to hear that, because sometimes I feel like there's some disbelief in there with people because they're like well, why didn't they say anything back there? So it's super important that you share that and then maybe walk us through what that was like, that first moment when you decided to tell your wife oh that was.
Michael Mershon:it was intense, you know. I can remember it pretty vividly. I can remember it pretty vividly and I don't think I actually even said the words. I was abused, but it was more putting context around the fact that something had happened, and Jamie leaned into it enough to kind of pull that out of me at the time. So it was very much I wanted to say it but I didn't have the words in a sense to say it and I didn't know how to.
Michael Mershon:So I basically put it out there as best as I could and Jamie kind of filled in the gaps and then asked the direct question did something happen to you? Were you abused? And at that point I was able to kind of confirm it to you. Were you abused? And at that point I was able to kind of confirm it. But to highlight what you're speaking to, you know, in terms of those memories, I think for me for most of my life I just I turned to, you know, alcohol and things like that to essentially kind of numb and suppress those memories. So I think for me it was very much that I was subconsciously or consciously, you know, doing everything I could not to remember. And eventually I got to a point where I had slowed down on the drinking and some other things and gotten a little healthier, and that's when I think God used that timing to kind of start bringing these things to light.
Mandy :I think this is such a key thing that you're saying here because you work I mean you provide for your family, you've got three kids, you've got a wife Like you've got a lot on your plate, right and when these memories started to come back, you're processing all of this on your own and having to live your life and push through, and so I can only imagine that, looking back, you're probably like, oh my gosh, I was really struggling and you brought up the alcohol. You're just trying to numb, just trying to get through the day. And I think this is so important for us to recognize that in people around us our spouse, our close friends when we see them struggling to push into that, like what's going on here, this is more than just having a glass of wine at dinner.
Mandy :This is something different here. You know you're missing stuff, you're angry, you're short, you're like what's wrong. And to push into that, I think, is really important, even though it may not speed up you being able to process, just being, I guess, sensitive to the fact that there's people all around us going through something we don't understand.
Michael Mershon:And I know for me it had become almost so normal that somebody leaning into it and saying, hey, you know, maybe this isn't normal or maybe this isn't the way it should be, I think that would have been very powerful in that moment in my life, because I had been living that way, for you know, prior to our marriage, a long time. You know, most of my adult life was kind of just dealing with those coping mechanisms, so it had become just my new normal, as unhealthy as it was.
Speaker 4:Well and that's a scary thing for someone who loves you or cares about you to take that step. And so it's kind of this two-sided situation, Like you need someone to stand in the gap and be like. Sided situation, like you need someone to stand in the gap and be like, be, take the risk of. They might reject me, they may be angry, they may not receive this, but, as you know, friends, coworkers, whatever it is, family members I think you're a living testament to when, when they stand there with you and stand in the gap, like that's the beginning of healing Absolutely, and you know it's a very scary place to be on both sides of it because there takes a lot of vulnerability to put yourself out there and it also takes a lot of courage to step into somebody's story with that.
Mandy :Well, and speaking of courage, you know it, it takes any abuse victim courage to come forward, any abuse victim courage to come forward, and I think that in our world, with the Me Too movement and stuff, women have really been empowered to step forward, which is such a positive thing for women who have experienced abuse, but I still feel like it's more difficult for men, michael, and can you speak into that? This is why I think this is such an important series that we're covering for men victims, because I know there's a lot out there who are afraid to speak up.
Michael Mershon:So for me it had many, many layers to it. I think there's even a physical side side of it, because I'm a very big guy and I know we're on a podcast you can't see that, but I'm six foot seven inches. So when you think about somebody that's going to be abused, you know, even as a male, I think my stature and my size make it even less likely that I would be a victim. And then it's. You know the whole mentality of guys are supposed to be the strong one, or men are supposed to be the strong ones, the protectors, the providers.
Michael Mershon:And as a kid, you know I was abused by a peer in my situation, so it was a male peer of mine and for the longest time I didn't understand what the true magnitude of that was. I knew something was wrong, but not being able to put my finger on it kept it suppressed that much more. And I think the more I got those glimpses of those images or those things, those snippets that something might have happened, the harder I tried to fight it, because I didn't want to be labeled a victim, or I didn't want to be seen as weak, or I should have been strong enough at that young age of 11 to say no or to understand that that was wrong and I wasn't equipped. I didn't have the knowledge and, as an adult, I yeah, I just didn't have the support system.
Mandy :So was. I have a couple of questions here. Was the peer older than you?
Michael Mershon:So the peer was older than me by about three years. Uh, somebody that lived in my neighborhood um, by all surface accounts a very nice family, um, you know, went to church with them. Uh, they went to a private Christian school. Um, no obvious red flags in that sense.
Mandy :So on the surface of very you know, kind of everyday, um, everyday type of family, so I have another question, because I see this often in stories that are shared with me, with male victims especially Was pornography involved and can you speak into how it was involved, if it was?
Michael Mershon:Yeah, absolutely so. For me it was a progression. It started the process from I'll call it the grooming process, but the process from kind of taking that first step towards being abused and actually being abused for the first time took about seven or eight months, and along the way there was a variety of different things. You know, one of the things that I can remember is, like, you know, smoking a cigarette in his backyard, because that was, like you know, forbidden. You know, having a sip of beer, and you know things like that. I was kind of like, ok, I did it because I wanted to be cool.
Michael Mershon:But you know, one of the probably the third or fourth thing that happened was being introduced to pornography, and that was the first time I can remember actually being like more hooked. You know, up to that point it was like, okay, I tried it, I did it because I wanted to be cool, but I didn't really like it that much and I wouldn't do it again. And then I was introduced to pornography and I can vividly remember just like wanting more at that point, and then that was essentially the beginning of the end for me. You know, at that point I became addicted to pornography and that ultimately, you know, is what kept me in the abuse and led me to being abused, as a result of kind of that control, because I lived in a very conservative home and he was the only access I really had to that pornography. So as long as he controlled that, then he had, you know, very much control over me in many senses.
Mandy :So I think this is really important to point out, because we talk a lot about a grooming process step one, step two, step three and we, we, we present scenarios of like um drinking together and then it's our little secret, Don't tell anybody, we'll get in trouble, kind of thing.
Mandy :And that grooming process it it kind of what I've learned over the years through Jamie and working with these other victims is it almost creates a mentality in your mind, a manipulative way of making you feel like you're a part of it. Right, Because you keep going back. It's like this secret world that he's created, Like it's just you and me we're doing all these things. It's so cool, we're experiencing the world. It's just you and me, Don't tell anybody. Once we talk about that, I want to talk about how you unraveled that for yourself through counseling and being able to identify that that's what happened, Because I think a lot of people get stuck in. Well, I was a willing participant and you have to go back and untangle that and see the manipulative little secrets that were kept along the way.
Michael Mershon:Absolutely. Yeah, it was, it's. It was very much a willingness on my part, or it felt very much like a willingness on my part, to continue to do those things. I, you know, like I said, it was the one thing that I kept coming back for more of and at a point, you know, it became more than the pornography and the pornography became sexual abuse. But I still went back to the pornography because I was addicted to that and in a sense I was willing to take the abuse because it, you know, got me what I ultimately wanted in the end and it was very much that that participant or that, you know, co um we're in this together, kind of thing.
Michael Mershon:Yeah, yeah, it was very much that I'm a participant in this and this is both of us. It's not him doing this to me it's more like it's a mutual decision that was made. And the further into that you get, the harder it becomes to get out, because you know at that point you've already said yes once, twice, three times. You know how are you going to suddenly stop and say no when he has this leverage or this control over you. So it just becomes something that you almost normalize and almost as a coping mechanism I believe it was that I just essentially, you know, told myself that it wasn't as bad as it was, it wasn't really abuse, I was willingly participating in it. I kind of convinced myself that it was okay and that was my way at that point in time of basically dealing with the situation that I found myself stuck in.
Speaker 4:When you were a kid like we're processing this now as adults, and I do think it's important for you to talk about that untangling that Mandy mentioned but when you really put that into context, you were a kid and something that you said that has stuck with me and I've been thinking about. You said that the abuser fills a need, and I think that's really important to point out here for parents to understand is that the abuser filled a need and in this case it became a pornography addiction, it became a tension. Would you agree with that?
Michael Mershon:Absolutely, I think, for me.
Michael Mershon:I don't know if everybody's aware of this, but I was homeschooled as well, so that was another context of not having a lot of outside interaction and being raised in a very conservative Christian home.
Michael Mershon:You know, I was only really allowed to associate with certain types of people. You know, in this case he was kind of an approved person because his family went to church. By all outward appearances, you know, they were that kind of safe, like-minded family, but he very much filled a need of, you know, connection, of belonging, of kind of almost I was the oldest child, so almost that older brother or older sibling kind of role I think there was multifaceted. When I started unpacking it I realized that pornography is what started and to a degree that is what kept me coming back. But there was also many other layers to that that I wasn't aware of, even existing until you know, probably really the last three years I've started unpacking that aspect of it, but that's, you know, 30 years after it happened, kind of thing. There's so much as a kid that I couldn't even wrap my head around and even as an adult that I had no idea was at play.
Mandy :So you, you convinced yourself that it was okay and you went and you kind of went on with your life, started drinking and have more heavy, and that continued on until this moment where you told Jamie and you guys have kind of been on this healing journey ever since then.
Michael Mershon:We have been yeah, it's been, I think, seven years, a little over seven years, since it all started, and it's been a lot of ups and downs and it's very much a journey that I feel like I am, in some senses, still in the process'm there. I've done a ton of healing but I've also found, you know, new layers that have surfaced over the years. So one of those layers, like I mentioned, was the whole a need being filled. You know that was something that came up years into my healing that I had never really made any connection with or didn't even really know existed.
Mandy :I think that's really important to how you pointed out, like, like he was a safe option and I'm using air quotes there because he was a Christian and they went to a Christian school and they went to church.
Mandy :We have to be so careful parents. We can't just let our guard down because people say they're Christian and bad things happen in Christian homes, and so I just you know, I know back then there wasn't the awareness that there is now of talking about these things, and there's just so many things that are that are filling my mind right now too, as far as, like, he was three years older than you, you and how important it is for us to teach our older kids that they have a duty to protect the heart and mind of younger kids below them and talking through that. But I would think that, with the Christian entanglement here, like you went to church with this boy but you guys were watching porn and doing all this stuff, which eventually led to abuse physical, sexual abuse but I feel like that would be so messy with your faith and a lot of confusion around that, because, as a kid, it's like I'm raised in this good Christian home. He's raised in this good Christian home. How did this happen?
Michael Mershon:Yeah, it was probably, to be fully transparent, the most difficult and confusing aspect of my healing. So, to go back a little bit to my childhood, I was raised I've said conservative, but that probably doesn't necessarily do it justice. It was very much a ultra conservative, very fundamentalist, very legalistic upbringing to the point where the family you saw at church was very happy, well-dressed, put together everybody in their place and the family you had at home was drastically different. Emotions weren't talked about, feelings weren't really talked about. You did things out of fear and out of a sense of, you know, duty or obligation, as opposed to having a heart for doing those things.
Michael Mershon:So it was very much a works-based upbringing and very much a workspace system that we lived in and that you know was all the way through my entire upbringing. You know, to the point where we went to extremes of getting rid of TVs. You know having actual bonfires where we would burn magazines and anything else that could be considered, you know, worldly or secular or kind of have that appearance of, oh, they're not walking the walk. So it was never really about truly following or truly having that relationship with God. It was much more so. How do we appear to the world and how can we present this image? So carrying that into adulthood and into my healing? It was at the start impossible for me to separate the two, so I felt like if I wasn't doing it through the church then I was breaking some kind of rule or breaking some kind of code and made me less of a Christian and God wasn't going to bless that. It was a very fear-based response.
Speaker 4:I mean, clearly, if that was your home and that was the environment fear-based, get in line, image, all of those things how stifling that would be. So someone just saying let's smoke this cigarette out back would speak to this deep need of freedom that, as human, the way God created us is for freedom, and so that I could see how easily it would be to groom a kid who's just trying to process his environment and doesn't have a safe place to talk about his feelings or ask questions, and then is offered this outlet Like it's a perfect situation and then that playing into you as you've gotten older, trying to separate those two, seems like that was probably the healthiest thing that you could do to really find God on your own.
Michael Mershon:And I think that that was really important, for that's something that's really important for people to understand is you're not walking away from God and you're not walking away from the church. That's how it felt to me at the time. But had somebody told me this is where you're going to be and this is the other side of that, I would have never started counseling with a lay person in the church. I would have gone straight to outside help. Because I now have that understanding of I can have a relationship with God and see a counselor that's licensed, that's trauma-informed, and I'm not doing anything wrong and there's nothing bad about that.
Michael Mershon:And the particular church that we were at at that time didn't really feel safe to, quite honestly, didn't really feel safe to share how I was truly feeling. So my default was, in a sense, just to play the part, was these two things had become so enmeshed and intertwined, you know, being the abuse and the Christian life, if you will, the Christian faith. They had become so synonymous because I was raised in a very Christian, conservative home. He was in a Christian home. There was no real separating the two and throughout my childhood after the abuse, I continued to go to church, continued to just kind of go on like everything was normal.
Michael Mershon:So as an adult trying to deal with that, it was very, very difficult for me to be able to separate the two and I'd say for the first probably two or three years of my healing I really couldn't separate the two.
Michael Mershon:It was very much leaning into the church as my only source of healing or my only source of counseling and therapy, and everything was contained within either lay counselors at the church or licensed counselors that worked exclusively with the church, very much trying to fit into that kind of box of staying away from outside psychology or outside help that wasn't strictly 100% Christian-based For me. I have the utmost respect for everybody that I saw during those times, but it was not helpful for me in particular to see them because they just weren't equipped for the type of healing and the situation that I was bringing in particular. So what I found ultimately is that after being in it for several years I had to basically separate the two and my church became just the church and nothing else, and then counseling was on its own on the other side of the tracks, or on the other side of the board, if you will.
Mandy :So through that counseling, you just focused on the abuse and the trauma and processing that Walk us through that because I think a lot of people are afraid to separate the two and that scares me as a Christian. It's just ingrained in who I am. But I can also see in your story, michael, how this happened in Christian families that you're going to church with. I can see how you have to untangle it for a minute and process it both on its own.
Michael Mershon:Yeah, what I found was that, trying to stay strictly in the context of the church, trying to stay strictly in the context of the church I was never able to really process my relationship with God because it was so intertwined with the abuse much more easy than I shouldn't say easy, but it became more manageable to see, okay, this is, you know, what Christian life and what Christian faith is.
Michael Mershon:And this is all the areas that it's gotten kind of twisted and used as a weapon and used essentially to keep me trapped and in bondage to this abuse that happened, used essentially to keep me trapped and in bondage to this abuse that happened. And it was extremely hard for me because, especially as growing up Christian, you know, like my whole mentality was that I should be able to, you know, lean on God exclusively for this healing. And if I wasn't finding healing, then I probably wasn't praying hard enough or there must have been some underlying sin in my life and it never really got to the point where I was able to see that this is how God created the brain and these are the things that happen when you're abused, because it was so intertwined with just the church and faith because it was so intertwined with just the church and faith.
Speaker 4:Well, in going to most churches and seeking help, it often looks like a lay counselor, which there's nothing wrong with that for a lot of things, a lot of troubles that we face along the way in life and marriage and parenting. But when you go through a trauma like abuse, you need a trauma-informed counselor for what you're saying that knows how the brain works, knows how God created you to process something like this, Because it takes you on a completely different path right.
Michael Mershon:Absolutely, and I think the biggest realization for me was that both things can coexist.
Michael Mershon:Biggest realization for me was that both things can coexist. Like I had this idea that I was breaking God's will or, you know, going against God's will if I went outside the church and saw somebody that is a licensed therapist. You know that was very much against my core beliefs at the time. So it took a lot for me to get to the point where I was going to go out and seek help outside. And what I did find was that there is a ton of great Christian counselors out there that have a license, that have the experience and that are much more equipped to walk through particular stories like sexual abuse, because, for all their good intentions, I haven't met a lay counselor yet that has the knowledge and the background and the equipping to be able to handle what I was personally bringing to the table in that situation. So it's nothing against them as people or what they do within the church. It's strictly just a context of having the right set of tools for what you need in that situation.
Mandy :We got to know our lane and there's a lot of damage done when we don't know our lane and know when to get more help or refer people out that need the help. You said so. If you don't want to answer this, you don't have to, but when you say, separate the two, I think it will help for our audience. So what you're saying here is that your therapist was a Christian but you took out the faith component because they were trauma-informed. So you focused just on the abuse in your counseling session, and that is kind of what your journey needed to be. But this person was a believer at heart. It just didn't enter the counseling session. Is that right? Am I understanding that correctly?
Michael Mershon:Yeah, that's accurate, you know. To put it in context, the lay counselors that were within the church focused primarily on scripture, bible reading, you know, daily time in the word, those kinds of things, as opposed to going outside the church to a licensed counselor. They had all those same beliefs but the focus wasn't on spending time in the Word, it was on. Okay, let's gain an understanding of what actually happened. When you were that age, you know the repercussions that it's had throughout your entire life of kind of starting to put those pieces together of you know the different layers of abuse that did happen, understanding the grooming process, understanding the whole victim versus participant mentality, of feeling like a participant and not a victim at all. None of that was really approached on the Christian lay counseling side of things and that's one of the big differences was that all was confronted head on when I had a trauma-informed counselor that was separate from the church, even though they shared all the same beliefs that I did.
Speaker 4:And as hard as that was to kind of separate those two. What does that look like now for you?
Michael Mershon:Now it's I would say it's come full circle. Um, I had to step away from almost everything you know, good and bad in terms of the Christian faith, everything you know good and bad in terms of the Christian faith, and the only way I found to do that was to completely separate the two and as a result of that, I've been able to fully step back in, and I'm still in the process of stepping back into the Christian faith and finding my own true identity in that, and I can honestly say that my relationship with God is a thousand times more authentic now than it was ever before. And I've been able to maintain that balance of leaning into God for certain things but also having that understanding of this is something I may need my therapist or my trauma-informed counselor to work through with me and I've been able to keep that balance of having both of those.
Mandy :What is the most helpful thing that you've done at the church to help your healing? I know in the beginning it did not work. You had to separate out the two. But you say now it's like kind of making a full circle moment back here and you're rebuilding your faith An authentic faith is what you said, which I love. What has helped with that at your church? Something specific?
Michael Mershon:Yeah. So probably the biggest thing. I mean it's important to note that we're not at the same church that I started my healing at. We found a church that I felt like was a better fit for our stage of life and that just we kind of meshed with better. But they have a 12-step recovery program and prior to this healing process I would have heard 12 steps and I would have been out the door and never given it a second thought because that's for alcoholics or drug addicts and that's very worldly and I don't need that.
Michael Mershon:But having come full circle and been able to kind of see that God can work through those types of programs, it's been joining this church-based 12-step program that's very biblically centered but that does have a lot of hard truths in it and forces people to confront things that they're not necessarily comfortable with but gives you that safe environment within to do that, so you can get to the root cause of things. And you have a dedicated group of guys that you're meeting with week after week that are there to support you and love you through this process, which I think is so biblical, and there's no judgment, there's no condemnation, it's just very much love you where you're at. You know, when you fall down and you fall flat on your face, like they're there to help you up and point you back towards God.
Mandy :And what is the name of the program that you did, the 12th Step? Tell us about that, because I'm sure there's churches and groups out there that want to support their abuse victims and their congregation more. And you've loved this program and it's been so instrumental in helping you rebuild your faith and understand how this all played into it, helping you really in your healing.
Michael Mershon:Yeah, absolutely so. The name of the particular one that I went through is called Regeneration. It's a 12-step program. It lasts about a year as the structured component of it. What I found really, really helpful as an abuse victim was that after a certain number of weeks in our case it was about the first six weeks they actually closed the group. So the people that were in at the six week mark were the people that you know. No new people were going to join, and that was a really big thing for me because I was going to a group like that was very uncomfortable for me. But having the knowledge that it's going to be a closed group and that I'm not going to have to reshare my story with new people week in and week out allowed me to get comfortable and become vulnerable much quicker than I would have otherwise.
Speaker 4:This speaks so much to the importance of a safe place we're trying to create in our homes with our kids and our spouse, but we need it in every step of our healing to have a safe place where you can process with people and trust them and, like you said, to not have to start over that they actually know you and they walk along with you. It sounds like a really incredible program.
Michael Mershon:It's been. I mean, it's been huge for me and being abused by another male. That was a really hard aspect for me was getting into groups with other males and this particular group you know everybody there was there for different reasons. It wasn't strictly just abuse victims, I mean, there was people with sex addictions, alcoholism, drugs, so it was very much a variety of different circumstances that brought us there, but we all had the common desire to get to the root cause of things and to do it in a biblical fashion. And everybody was raw and authentic and that really spoke to me.
Mandy :And community is so important and, like Kim said, having that safe place. I want to circle back to something you said because it's ringing in my head, michael, and I think I just want to talk about it for a minute. You had to separate the Christianity from the abuse in the beginning, because some of the traits of Christianity and the unhealthy things in the church is what actually landed you there. And in my mind you didn't say these words, but in my mind I thought you know, we all want, like I have, a pretty non-toxic Christian walk. Right. I haven't gotten pulled into legalism or a lot of fundamentalism. Over the years I had one church that I had to step out of because of that.
Mandy :But I saw, you know, I noticed it right away and I think a lot of Christians like me think, well, don't be mean about the name of Jesus or the name of the church or whatever. But I think we really have to realize there are some toxic Christianity sects out there that are doing major, major damage, especially in the area of abuse and lots of other things too. So can you kind of speak into what you meant by that? That kind of Christian environment kind of created this culture where it was a secrecy kind of thing.
Michael Mershon:Yeah, yeah, and that came at my detriment and the detriment of my healing. But ultimately, you know, had I been at a healthier church that offered outside counseling, I don't think it ever would have gotten to that point. But I think it's important for people to hear that if you are in that situation, there's nothing wrong with stepping outside of the church to get help. It doesn't make you less of a Christian. It doesn't mean that you're walking away from your faith. It doesn't mean that you're abandoning God or deconstructing or whatever the term is today. It simply means that you're going to seek help from somebody that specializes in what you need, and both things can be present at the same time. You can have a great relationship with God and be a counselor that's trauma-informed at the same time, and you don't necessarily have to have both of those present at the same time. But I think it's helpful to find somebody that has the underlying beliefs that you share.
Michael Mershon:But more importantly for my situation in that phase of healing was finding somebody that understood. Hey, you were abused as a child. It's 20, 30 years, whatever it is later for you and now you're dealing with it for the first time. That's a very complex thing to walk through, and you need somebody that truly has a deep understanding of that. Or you're dealing with it for the first time. That's a very complex thing to walk through and you need somebody that truly has a deep understanding of that, or you're going to do yourself more harm than good.
Mandy :This just speaks so much, michael, to the culture that we have in our home and the culture that we have in our churches, how important it is for it to be healthy in a place of open communication.
Mandy :Because when you were explaining, we literally banned magazines or burned magazines that we thought were bad, and no TV and that kind of rigid, legalistic place is so dangerous for kids, especially now because they can go online and find freedom from their bedrooms, from a burner phone that somebody gave them at school or a youth group. It's even heightened even more today. You painted a really good picture and I'm glad that you did that for us, because I think a lot of us think Christianity isn't that and we don't want Christianity to be toxic. We do not. That's not the way Jesus intended. He did not want that. But people have gotten a hold of Christianity and some people have made it very toxic and we need to untangle that. For people like you and you can tell even explaining how you were seeing a therapist who was a believer but you just weren't bringing faith into the therapy room you can see how you still kind of struggle with that to untangle that a bit, because you've been so ingrained that it's just so rigid and bad. That's so unhealthy.
Michael Mershon:Yeah, it feels a little uncomfortable saying that in this format, even because I don't want people to think like, oh well, he's, you know he's not a Christian or he wouldn't have done that, or that's kind of the thoughts that come to mind even on this side of healing, so you can just see how deeply that was ingrained. But I can say you know without reservation, that my relationship with God would not be at the point it is now if I hadn't taken those steps and I can clearly see His hand, you know, kind of guiding me where I eventually needed to be. But it's a journey and it's messy and it's, you know, nothing about. It is simple.
Mandy :Well, this is cliche to say it, but I feel like you traded like a bad religion theology for a real relationship is what happened here and I see it in you and I see it when we talk to you about your walk and how you're sharing. I mean to me that shows your relationship with Jesus, the fact that you have the courage to share your story and help others and kind of walk through this with them, and the fact that you're going to a group. I know Jamie was like he would never go to a group and like share things before.
Michael Mershon:No, it was very much. The church we started was very much about group meetings and doing life with groups and I fought against that tooth and nail. I wanted nothing to do with groups and I fought against that tooth and nail. I wanted nothing to do with that and Jamie will share this, I'm sure. But that put a lot of pressure and a lot of strain on our marriage because we're supposed to be this Christian couple and I wanted nothing to do with going to a small group at our church. You know, and looking back, like you, can understand the context more, but in those moments that was one of the things that put a huge strain on our marriage.
Speaker 4:As we've walked through your story and hearing these different layers and talking about the abuse and then telling your wife and that process and your healing.
Speaker 4:It leads me back to parenting and more of a practical question that I have for you. What did you need in that moment when you realized you were abused and you came to your wife? I think for parents out there that maybe are sensing something's going on with their kid, something's not right, there's something off. They haven't pinpointed it yet. What would you tell them if their kid finally does come to them or they approach their kid, what do you think?
Michael Mershon:they need in that moment.
Michael Mershon:So when I think about when I first started confronting it told Jamie, the number one thing in my mind was I wanted to be believed, first and foremost, and then the second most important thing I, looking back, I can see would have been much more practical help because at that point in life we had two little kids, you know, a three-year-old or soon to be three-year-old, and a newborn, and we were literally in the thick of a very difficult and trying stage of our life and had very little help with any aspects of life still trying to hold down jobs, trying to keep the kids stable, you know, trying to manage marriage.
Michael Mershon:Just having practical help of somebody being able to say, hey, we're going to take the kids, or we didn't have a lot of money at that time. Saying saying, hey, let's find you a great therapist and we'll pay for it, we'll cover two or three sessions and everybody's situation is different giving somebody time or somebody giving us their time. So we had space to even begin to process this stuff. I think would have done wonders for, you know, moving the healing process along, because we were so stifled with everyday life it made it very, very difficult to find any bits of time to work those things through any bits of time to work those things through.
Mandy :From a perspective of an adult going back to a parent saying this happened, I mean, that's kind of even a different situation than what Kim posed.
Mandy :As a young kid wanting to be believed, but as an adult going back to your older parents, I could totally see where a lot of those practical things can come in. With you being a busy dad, husband, having to work and provide, and all of that stuff, all of the things that are coming at you in a moment where you're trying to process trauma and heal from it, I can't even imagine. I just wanted to say, though, michael, thank you for being here. Also, we gave you the option not to use your name and not to make the Jamie connection, and you were adamant. No, I want to be able to help people and again, I think that's Jesus shining through you. It shows where you are in your relationship with Jesus and in your healing journey with the abuse, and I thank you for doing the hard work. I know there have probably been very dark days where you've been trying to struggle and hold it all together, and I just I hope that you finally are starting to see how God can, can use this whole mess for good.
Michael Mershon:Absolutely it's. It's been by far the most trying thing I've ever had to go through, but it's also finding new life on the other side of it has been one of the most rewarding where I've wanted to quit and where it's almost broken our marriage. But persisting till the end and continuing to fight for yourself, I think, would be my parting advice for anybody listening that thinks that they have been through this or knows that they've been through something like this. Keep fighting for yourself because you're worth it, and that's something I never heard as a kid Like I very much felt like I was just discarded and nobody told me I was worth fighting for, and sometimes in this process that's maybe just what somebody needs to hear is you're worth fighting for. So keep fighting for yourself, because people like your y'all's show is putting the message out there and you guys are doing, you know, the work to spread the knowledge and if I can be any small part of that, then I'm happy to.
Speaker 4:Well, thank you for that. I think that, right, there is probably what a lot of people needed to hear to support their spouse, to support their kid and your vulnerability and transparency are incredible, and thank you for taking the time to share your story, share the encouragement and be available for people who are walking through something this horrific, giving them hope that there is a purpose on the other side and God can make anything beautiful out of the ashes, and you are a living testament to that. So thank you for being here with us today, absolutely.
Michael Mershon:Thank you guys so much for having me.
Mandy :And we heard from Michael today. But we're going to do a separate show with Jamie just from a wife perspective of walking your spouse through that, but then also we're going to talk to Jamie from a counselor perspective too. So make sure to tune in next week as we talk to one of our trusted partner, LPCs. Thank you so much for joining us, listening and sharing our podcast. Because of you, this show is in the top 5% of over 2.9 million podcasts.
Kim Elerick:We have lots of resources for you, from counseling to live events. Or if you have a show idea or a question for our team, visit our website at nexttalkorg. We'd love to hear from you.
Mandy :At next Talk. We're more than cyber parenting. It's conversations to connect.
Michael Mershon:This podcast is not intended to replace the advice of a trained healthcare or legal professional, or to diagnose, treat or otherwise render expert advice regarding any type of medical, psychological or legal problem. Listeners are advised to consult a qualified expert for treatment.