Jamie Mershon has the unique standpoint of being the spouse of a husband who suffered childhood sexual abuse, as well as being a trauma informed counselor. She shares how she walked through this as a wife, and then gives practical tips and eye-opening perspectives as an LPC.
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Jamie Mershon has the unique standpoint of being the spouse of a husband who suffered childhood sexual abuse, as well as being a trauma informed counselor. She shares how she walked through this as a wife, and then gives practical tips and eye-opening perspectives as an LPC.
KEEPING KIDS SAFE ONLINE
Connect with us...
www.nextTalk.org
Facebook
Instagram
Contact Us...
admin@nextTalk.org
P.O. BOX 160111 San Antonio, TX 78280
Welcome to the next Talk podcast. We are passionate about keeping kids safe in an overexposed world.
Kim Elerick:It's Mandy and Kim and we're navigating tech, culture and faith with our kids.
Mandy Majors:It is week three of our sexual abuse series where we're really tackling this from a male survivor perspective, and this week we have a very special guest on the show. She's no stranger to next Talk. Her name is Jamie Mershon and she has served on our advisory council for years. She is a trusted LPC within our organization, a partner counselor, and her husband, Michael, was the guest from the previous show. So if we're making that connection for everybody and Jamie and Michael said that's okay and just so we put this into context of, yes, we have known her for years from the nextTalk perspective, but now she has walked her husband through this as a wife and a counselor. So, Jamie, we are so thankful for you and we're so thankful you're back on the show.
Jamie Mershon:Thank you so much for having me. It's always such an honor and I know today is a little bit different because I'm coming from a personal angle and not just professional, which is why I did not wear mascara. I really feel like you're like mascara warnings on your podcast. Okay, can you just help a mama out, all right?
Mandy Majors:That's funny. I had another person text us that.
Kim Elerick:We need to have makeup warnings for sure.
Jamie Mershon:Yes, yes.
Mandy Majors:Anyways, I'm so happy to be here so for the structure of this show just to tell our guests where we're going we do want to talk both from a personal and professional standpoint for you. So the first part of the show is just going to be like Jamie, how did you respond when your husband dropped this on you as a wife? Yeah, and what you got right, what you got wrong. And then, after we work through that, then we're going to flip it at the end and we're going to talk about this from a counselor perspective, because I want to be able to arm parents on things that they can do at home if they're walking their kids through this, or how to help prevent this from happening in the first place. So we're going to get into all of that. But I think the first point is going to be tough because it's really personal and it's your story and it's years of hard work behind the scenes, of struggling with this.
Jamie Mershon:Yeah, when I hear you say that, mandy, like I feel like today is going to be really redeeming because you know, I'm recording from my office today and I'm in my chair and there's my couch where other people sit, you know, and it was such a spiritual battle of walking people through their own stories and guiding them on how to be a safe place for their loved one when they were going through something hard and there was so much shame, because I would have loved to have been that person who's like. I'm telling you this because this is how I've always handled it, or this is how I've handled it, and it really felt contradicting and so it feels really redeeming to bring it into the light of, you know, somebody who is often affirmed in my job, or you know, I wonder what it's like being married to you. You know, and it's this assumption that I'm just this awesome wife and the reality is, no, lots of times I'm not, and we'll get more into the context of why I'm saying that. But you know, when everything came to light with Michael's story, you know, we had just a dear, sweet friend who God used, and I was working at an organization walking women who were trying to get their kiddos back through human trafficking. And so I was working with lots of victims and we had personal people in our life who were walking through their healing, and so God just set the stage that Michael could no longer suppress what was going on.
Jamie Mershon:And for so many years I was trying to make sense of it, like is this depression? Is it just low self-esteem? Is it you just don't want to be married? You just like check the box and did what you were raised to do, which is get married and have kids. You know, I always sense this distant distance Right and I could never pinpoint it. So the moment it all came to a head, I remember where he was standing and he couldn't even say it and I just said were you abused? And he was like you know, he shook his head, he nodded.
Mandy Majors:He shook his head nodded.
Jamie Mershon:You know, and you know we were the thick of littles. My body loves being pregnant. We had three girls in three and a half years, and so Her body loves being pregnant. We had three girls in three and a half years, and so body loves being pregnant. You know, it just does, and so, um, but in the midst of all that it was like all right, at that time we had a, um, uh, two month old, and then we had a two year old, and so, you know, we really couldn't get into it.
Jamie Mershon:When he nodded his head yes, because the kids were still up and and all that good stuff and I just remember sitting across from him, like we have two couches that face each other and when we were finally able to just acknowledge that moment, right, it was so much emotion and it was such a tender moment and it was such a sacred moment in our marriage because for the first time, I felt like I knew who I was married to and it all made sense and I had so much compassion for all the previous behavior that felt so lonely and disruptive and confusing. And so and then you know me doing what I do for work it was this like how did I miss this, you know? But I just remember such a relief of like everything makes sense now and I would love to say, you know, I continued being that nurturing person and that compassionate person. But the longer we got into this, like in the beginning, it's such a private thing, you know, like if my husband would have been diagnosed with, you know, cancer, it's like let's start a meal train, let's start a prayer circle at church, let's, you know, let's take your kids for you so you can take him to treatment, right, and your insurance kicks in to pay for it all. And that's not how this works. It's very lonely, it's very confusing, and I think it was so hard because what I was doing for work and having two little girls and just not knowing how to navigate this, you know, I know how to walk clients through it right, but I don't know how to walk a husband through it.
Jamie Mershon:And so I just remember moments where I did a lot of harm to him through the words or even my behavior, because I was so resentful towards his trauma, because I had my own stuff going on and I was like where's the room for me? Like I just had a baby, my family's out of state, I'm caring for others, and that was hard because you know one of the things as Michael and I have journeyed this, we've been able to put language to a lot of things and one of those pieces is just our attachments and little Jamie like from my upbringing that carried into marriage, my greatest fear is abandonment and unlovable, and from Michael's upbringing and things that he has endured, his greatest fear is being harmed or deceived, and from a survivor standpoint you can understand how that avoided attachment transpires. So they really worked against each other because, you know, the more I harmed him, the more the walls went up and I felt that and I got very reactive, which just reinforced why he needed those walls or boundaries, and rightfully so. And that is still a struggle that we're working through, because if your greatest fear is being unlovable or abandoned, um, emotionally, whatever that looks like, you really have a great need to be seen and heard and I have a more reactive um response versus being responsive.
Jamie Mershon:And so we've really had to work on that and I think you know, as both of us have done our individual work and we've done healing, the biggest thing I notice is the recovery time. So, as I've become a safe person to Michael and, as he has also, the more we could heal and the more he became attentive to me, I could heal Right, and so a big thing that I've seen in our marriage that has been so helpful is a recovery is quicker. So like if we, you know, have really like a hard day or a hard exchange, the walls don't go up or they come down quicker and I am more responsive versus reactive, or we can even acknowledge hey, mike, that's your avoidant coming out, or Jamie, that's your anxious attachment coming out. We have the language to put around it and we understand why we operate the way we do, if that makes sense understand why we operate the way we do.
Mandy Majors:If that makes sense, yeah, that makes perfect sense. And it sounds like you guys. I mean, this was how many?
Jamie Mershon:years ago. Have you been working through this Like seven years? Seven years, yeah, and that's why I think you know 2024, mike and Jamie. It's not perfect, right, this is it's a weary process, right, because there's a lot of healing that will not be done on this side of heaven. We're still grieving, we're still having to hold firm boundaries which you know that can be hard at times.
Jamie Mershon:But in the midst of it all, we're raising three little girls and we're trying to break a lot of just generational strongholds, and so it is weary, it is exhausting and you know, you just sometimes you don't see an end to it all and you wonder are we strong enough for this? The enemy comes in and makes you question, like, are we even good for each other? You know there's just the lies, so you have to be so on guard to just catch. You know the lies of the enemy Because, mike and I together, the Lord has great influence, influence to use us in massive ways. Right, when we're both healthy and we're good, the Lord can do endless things through us, right, but when we're not, you know, we both just feel defeated and depleted and it's really hard to question whether or not we're strong enough to get through this, if that makes sense, yeah that totally makes sense.
Kim Elerick:I think that's important for people to hear, because it's not easy walking this journey. But I do want to rewind a little bit to the moment when he told you what had happened, even though he couldn't really say the words expressing that to you. One of the things he said was that it was so. The most important thing was that he was believed. Yes, and I wanted to ask you about that because on the other side of that, when you're hearing something from someone, maybe a grown man, maybe your child, it's easy to think there's no, that didn't happen or or what like. What was that like? Being in your shoes?
Jamie Mershon:doubt the easiest thing to believe, just from my professional experience. Like that is something nobody is ever going to make up, right, it's actually saying your work right there out loud, right, right, yeah. And so for me it was like you know, he couldn't even say it out loud, right, the shame, the confusion just really coming to terms with the reality of like this happened. And you know, another thing like is just to be able to be vulnerable and to advocate for himself.
Speaker 4:I just remember, you know, that night he's just like just hold me, and it's so interesting listening to Jenny's podcast when she's like she held her boy like a baby, right?
Jamie Mershon:yes, he, you know. You see, mike, he's six, seven, you know, and he just wanted to be like, nurtured, and that was, you know, for him to just say what he needed, because I think a huge part of his story is, you know, we talk about those smoke singles and you just want somebody to say notice, like this isn't normal, this isn't okay, and you stop advocating and you stop being even in tune with what you need. And I was so incredibly proud that he knew what he needed, and he entrusted me to be that person needed and he entrusted me to be that person, and so that is something like it was.
Jamie Mershon:It was just this instant, you know, I believe you, I'm here, and so I think it was so hard to have this just, you know, supernatural Holy Spirit led response and then, months following, even years following, just a very flush response. And it was hard because I so wanted to be his safe place and so many times I messed up and didn't get it right and he had every right to create those boundaries. I mean truly because he was doing the work. He was seeking out counselors, he was doing the work, you know, pursuing God, all of it, like he was doing his part. And there was a lot of shame that I should be so grateful. It should be so easy for me to partner with him and his healing. And it was confusing, of like, why do I have this flesh side that is so resentful? And I think it was.
Jamie Mershon:Just later on, another baby came, so it was like a three and a half year old and 18 month old and a newborn, you know, and very little support, and it was so much, you know, hormones, and we were both raising babies and building businesses and you know, and we have such a heart for people. So trying to love people through you know it just was a lot. And I think an important part of my story too is PTSD has a start and an end. It's like I have this great life and this horrible thing happened, and here's where it started and here's where it ended. That's PTSD. For Michael's story, he has complex PTSD which is like a trauma lasagna. It's like this happened and this happened, and then there was this and there was layers and layers.
Jamie Mershon:And right. It's just this constant continuation of hardships and trials and, you know, feeling alone with it, and so that was a lot to unpack, because as we got into it he really was able to make the connection of like this is so much deeper than the sexual abuse.
Mandy Majors:Was there ever a moment, jamie, I can totally see how you were. You had all this responsibility at home and work and he had to pour into himself to kind of like he went into survival mode at the moment, realizing this happened and then walking through that? I can see how you kind of felt alone and when do I take care of me now, kind of thing. I can see that happening so clearly. Was there ever a moment, too, that you were like I don't want this to be our story, like I don't want, like this is going to be on our family, this is going to trickle down to my kids? This is because I selfishly think I would go there in my mind. I know that sounds horrible, but I think I would believe at first because I would know that's what they would need, but then I think in my mind it would go to all these places about how this is going to affect our family for generations.
Jamie Mershon:It's the endurance of it right, because it's like that start and end and there is no end to this and it does make you weary and I think there were so many spots where I felt so helpless because he had such a willingness. You know, we first went to the church and then we went to a um counselor connected at a church and then we found another person. It was all these people that didn't know what to do. And I have this husband who is so desperate and fighting for healing and seeking.
Jamie Mershon:Jesus and you know, trying to leave his family, and it felt so helpless of like he's just going to give up and I'm never going to know what he has a potential to be restored or redeemed. And so there are like I don't think we talk about that enough, of just how there are not people equipped enough sometimes for these high levels of complex PTSD and feeding and it makes you just feel helpless. And you know scripture is extremely comforting, right, it is. But you also just have these deep ingrained trauma responses. The way God designed us that when we're younger it's, you know, the analogy I use is like a little kid that goes to the store in stealing not good, right. But if you go look in this fridge and there's no food, you're like, wow, that's a really creative little boy, what a great problem solver, right. But carry that coping mechanism into adulthood and now it's criminal activity.
Jamie Mershon:I think the way God designed the brain is when we're younger we feel helpless. We get very creative on how to solve problems when we're left to our own devices and you carry those into adulthood and the consequences look bigger. And you know one of the things like, just for an example, right Of like drinking, right. At first it works and it numbs and then it becomes alcoholism. You know, um, there it's so complex and there's so many coping mechanisms that make sense and give you compassion instead of judgment. But all that comes into marriage and the consequences look different and it's sometimes hard to have compassion even though you understand what they're rooted in. And I had a lot of anger and when you look at the core feeling of anger, it's injustice and it was. I just really had to practice like a new belief system, and I still have to fight this. Looking at other marriages and assuming, wow, what's that like, married to a husband with no trauma and he could do the same thing, what's it like being a survivor and having a wife that's so healthy she can be your safe place. You know it can go both ways, and so I've had to be very, very guarded and, like you know, I grew up in the Midwest and when we went to the airport we'd have to go by Rochester, minnesota, and it's a big Amish community and the horses on the road would always have their blinders on and it wasn't, so they would not get distracted with the cars zooming by right, and I kind of thought, god, like I need to live with the blinders on and not look at all the other people that I think are zooming by or have it better. This is my lane, this is where you have me and almost this acceptance. And I'm still wrestling through that.
Jamie Mershon:And I think the more I'm working with my own personal therapist and doing my own healing, I'm realizing like, okay, I need a lot more care from Michael too. And so trying to find that balance of like wow, you know, and that's where you really, just like Jesus, has to be your ultimate place to go, because I can't. You know, michael said something so profound last night. He's like Jamie, like you can't expect me to take care of you and fill in those voids if you're not taking care of yourself.
Jamie Mershon:And I think it's such a learning behavior for me to take care of everyone else, and then I'll get to me and that's created this huge dependency on him. So when I'm not in the word and I'm not taking care of my body and eating right and making sure I'm getting support and I'm telling people how I'm really doing right, then that creates this huge expectation. Well, you need to be all that. So I really love how he lovingly brought that into the light last night, because he's so right Like I have to do my part in my healing too, because I think I put this on fair expectation. Now it's my turn and you need to be all these things.
Mandy Majors:Yeah, each of you have a little you and Jesus journey, right, and if you don't have time for that, for that, jamie and Jesus, you're not going to respond well, you're going to respond in the flesh, just like you said, and we all are guilty of that I do want to say. I do want to go back to one thing you said when you said sometimes I don't feel like I'm strong enough for all this. Yeah, and you know, when you said that, jamie, my thought was you're not and I'm not. Yeah, but that is where, as believers, like, we have the Holy Spirit living in us to give us that strength.
Mandy Majors:And Jesus says bring, bring that yoke to me, bring your burdens to me, right, and I think that that is like it is okay to feel overwhelmed and that is a real feeling and to admit, like I don't have the strength to deal with this, I do not. So I'm going to see the Lord's wisdom in this and I love watching you guys, from you know, seeing your journey, because I also love. Like he got his own counselor, you got your own counselor. Like you're not, like I'm a counselor, I can handle it. We can keep it in house. No, no, we've got to have help and heal each of us on our own little journeys help and heal each of us on our own little journeys.
Jamie Mershon:And I think you know there's discomfort and obedience and you know, or there's there's comfort and disobedience, right. And I think sometimes I fought that like I don't have time to do all this stuff, I just want to stay comfortable. You go, do all the work, right? So I do think we forget that there's comfort in disobedience and there's blessing in obedience and really keeping that at the heart of your journey, to have just like.
Jamie Mershon:It's not going to be comfortable, right, but there will be blessings and we don't always may not be what we would think they would be or how we would write it, but they're there and you know, like just written on my couch, like you know, my anthem is Philippians 1, 6, because he started a good work in us and we are not completed till we're called home in a blink of an eye and our very last breath, right? And all that scripture is calling us to do is just grow in him. And he's not even telling us the pace, him, and he's not even telling us the pace, right, he's just saying grow towards me, grow in me. And because of all of that, you know I cling onto that as long as we're moving. Sometimes it's snail pace, but as long as we're moving it's like we're being obedient.
Kim Elerick:It's in the waiting, it's in the waiting, and that's very difficult. Yeah, very much so. The waiting, it's in the waiting, and that's very difficult.
Mandy Majors:Yeah, very much so. One of the things that the reason I wanted to do Jenny's story and then Michael's story because Jenny is a mom who is not going to. She's not a rug sweeper, is what she calls herself. I'm going to face this head on because my boy needs me to bring this into the light right now and start his healing right now. And I wanted to highlight Michael's story because I can't imagine enduring this trauma and keeping an end for that long.
Mandy Majors:Yeah, yeah, Year decades, right Like decade, and so I think it's so beautiful because Michael and Jenny have met and you shared something with us that Michael said was okay to share, that I would love for you to read before we switch over to the whole counseling thing. The hat for you. A lot of times at Next Talk we see behind the scenes of how God is orchestrating guests and stories and some of that stuff. We don't get to share on the air because it's more personal and we don't want to do that. But Michael's given us permission to share this. He wrote a little note to Jenny.
Jamie Mershon:Yes, Before I do, I want to add this little nugget of why Michael admires Jenny so much. When you start healing, you have to figure out who are safe people and who are not safe people, and that can be confusing, right, and sometimes we have this narrative because people fill certain roles in your life like they're exempt, they're always going to be there, right, and it gets really complicated. And how do you know who's a safe person and who's a not safe person? And I think a really hard but evidence-based way to kind of tell if they're safe or not is do they live in fantasy world or do they live in reality? So fantasy world is be, you know, minimizing it. Oh, that happened a long time ago. Well, just get over it. You know, it just seems like you're finding identity and being a victim. You know, there's a lot of hurtful, painful, ignorant things and lots of times it's said by very unhealed people, right, and when that piece is exposed, you have to make a really hard decision, because our goal in life is to be an authentic person, right, and if somebody is living in reality, they're not going to minimize it, they're going to be patient like break my heart for what breaks yours. How can we walk this with you? What do you need with you? What do you need? There's just going to be evidence that they've been equipped and they are willing to walk this with you because you're the one who endured it and you went through it. And to say like, can't do that, that's too much, that's very abandoning. And it kind of says, yeah, see, this is why I don't depend on people, right, my story's too much. That's very abandoning. And it kind of says, yeah, see, this is why I don't depend on people, right, my story's too much.
Jamie Mershon:Or once you start healing, you recognize like I want to live an authentic life. For so long I didn't get to live an authentic life. Before I knew what sex even was. I was molested Before I even knew what had happened. I had already engaged in this deal with this person and I kept this secret for years. When you finally experience that freedom and healing and that freedom and Jesus, you understand how you're truly free from that piece of your story. You are so hungry to continue living in freedom and to live an authentic life.
Jamie Mershon:And if you have somebody who cannot engage in that reality with you, then to have a relationship with them you have to betray your little self, your adult self, your healed self, and you have to get into character and engage in that fantasy world which then betrays your younger self and undoes all this healing. You've done so. Because of that, oftentimes you cannot be in fellowship with people that we've kind of set this expectation of well, no matter what they're this in your life. Expectation of well, no matter what they're, this in your life and at all costs like they're going to be that person in your life, because that's just how it is, if that makes sense, like that could be a family member, that could be a best friend, it could be well, we've just always we've grown up with these people. Whatever you know, it gets messy, and so I think well, I don't think I know the words behind this card for Michael is because he is seen by Jenny and it's authentic and she weeps for Michael. She weeps.
Mandy Majors:Before you read that. When you were talking, jamie, I kept going back to Jenny's show when she said in there you could see the wrestling of creating the boundaries with the family of the boy who abused her son, and it's almost like it was so hard to set that boundary in place, even though she knew it was the right thing to do for her son to be like we can't have access, we cannot, you know, like all of it, but it was there, was this wrestling of this doesn't feel right, because I want to forgive you and I want to, I want to move to redemption and I want you to see what happened here and understand it and heal with us. But they're not there yet because they're still in the fantasy world of dismissing it. Oh, that wasn't a big deal. Oh, they were watching porn. Oh, they were, or whatever they're doing to dismiss the act of the abuse.
Jamie Mershon:Right doing to dismiss the act of the abuse Right. And you know, as believers we grieve with hope, so the hope will always be restoration and that is never lost on us. And like we are grieving relationships, and this already is such a lonely place, so to create those boundaries and even cut off certain things or certain relationships, it's hard and it feels irresponsible, it feels like, you know, is this what Christ is calling us to do? So get wise counsel. You know you have the Holy Spirit prayer. It's not a decision taken lightly but at the end of the day our family needs Michael, I need Michael, our little girls need Michael and if Michael's not good then, like the whole leave and cleave, he has to be good for his little girls and he has to be good for being a husband, but ultimately he also has to be good for him. You know that's a big thing in this journey is him learning how to choose him, and not out of a selfish place, but just choosing little Michael and protecting little Michael at all costs.
Kim Elerick:Well, I think too, one of the things that he said, which we talked about earlier, is being believed. And, to Mandy's point, that sacrifice of saying we have to create a boundary, we have to make these choices that are difficult, that validates whatever the person who has been abused has said. It's a different way of saying I believe you and I trust you and I'm here to help you heal, right.
Jamie Mershon:And that ownership and accountability needs to be there too, and if it's not like that's fantasy world as well, like we can't fully redeem and restore this if there are not real hard conversations of ownership and accountability, because you know, there's a lot that little Michael was exposed to and it's it's just, it's sad, you know the bottom line is sad.
Mandy Majors:Well, and that's why we're doing this series and bringing it into the light, so people who need support can find each other, and we've already seen that from Jenny's show. Moms reach out and get in contact with Jenny and you know Jenny and Michael have met and really have formed a really cool relationship, and I want you to read this card because it's precious On the front it says our hero.
Jamie Mershon:It's got a mom on it, right. My little one helped pick this out. She had no idea what it was for. So Holy Spirit activated and she was drawn to this and we're like okay, here we go. And on the inside it says when it comes to awesome moms, no one even comes close. So here are Michael's words, dear Mama Jenny, from a little boy who never had anyone to see his pain.
Jamie Mershon:thank you Seeing how you fought and continue to fight for your son brings me so much joy your willingness to stand with him, to lean into him and not take the easy way out has changed his future forever. Watching you on your journey has been healing to me in so many ways.
Speaker 4:Prior to this, I have never seen anyone who so selfishly fought to give a voice to a little boy who had his taken away. On behalf of all the little boys who will have their lives changed Because of the courage you had to share your experience, Thank you Sincerely, Big and Little Michael.
Mandy Majors:I think that's so precious because any parent listening to this series and you're wanting to not bring this into the light because it's going to be hard and I'm not going to lie, it is going to be hard. Jamie has been very honest with you. This is hard. I'm not going to lie, it is going to be hard. Jamie has been very honest with you. This is hard, but like that card in the words that he said just wrap it up to me in the importance of acknowledging it as abuse and believing your kid in the moment so they don't have to carry this for the rest of their life.
Mandy Majors:I mean, I think about Michael saying all those years I drank and I didn't know why I was numbing myself and then and then you went to, I didn't understand what was going on in our marriage and why he was so disconnected. And the minute he said it like it was almost like a relief of, oh, it makes sense now because this, this darkness, had been hidden for so long. And I really, I really just want to press into that, to encourage parents out there, no matter what the issue is, whether it's abuse, pornography, addiction, like whatever it is bring it into the light. There is healing and redemption on the other side of hard work in ways that, like I have just seen this whole series God do amazing things through it, behind the scenes, with families. You can trust God. You can trust God to bring it into the light and, as Jenny said, not be a rug sweeper.
Kim Elerick:Well, and the hard work is? It's so easy to not want to do it. You know I'm going to brush it under the rug. Like you said, rug sweeper, the hard work is so little compared to the blessing and the fruit and that's where we have to keep our eyes focused, like the blessing, the fruit and what God is doing on the other side of whatever trauma, whatever situation. We have to focus on that, or else it's so easy to brush it under the rug and not do the hard work. We have seen it so many times what God does through our obedience, even when it's really really hard.
Mandy Majors:Amen and Jamie. From a personal perspective, it blessed me because there have been moments not trauma moments like this, but moments in my kids' lives where I have not handled things well whatsoever and I do often think what would Jamie do, what would this counselor do, what would that like? I totally screwed that up Right, and I think it's just a normal mom over here trying to get through every day it. It really helps me that you've shared your personal like. You were so vulnerable to be like even me, educated in the mental health field and working in it every day and helping all these victims. I got it wrong, so allow yourself some grace. If you are listening out there and you're like, oh my gosh, I have swept it under the rug and I have made all the wrong decisions and I haven't believed, give yourself a little bit of grace on that and be like, okay, we understand why. But now why is it important to change that and dig in here?
Kim Elerick:So I think now you know we can switch gears a little bit to the counselor side. You know, as a trained LPC and trauma informed therapist, it looks a little bit different when you're looking at it through that view with someone who has been sexually abused. How do you approach that? What do we need to know as parents from that perspective?
Jamie Mershon:Well, I love how you guys orchestrated this series. You know, we heard from Jenny and believing her son. We heard from Michael. That was, you know, so important to him. So I think just number one is being believed because, as Michael shared, you feel like a partner, not a victim. So it's very confusing. You almost like gaslight yourself. You're just like was I really a victim? You know so just being affirmed yes, that's sexual abuse. And you know, I believe you. And after that piece of it, you know, know, I believe you. And after that piece of it, you know sitting with them and affirming them and calling it what it is, you know, just thanking them and commending them for the amount of courage that they had to bring this into the light and engage in this part of their story.
Jamie Mershon:And when I say that, an analogy that I'll use is like imagine a road and then there's a driveway, and at the end of the driveway there's a driveway, and at the end of the driveway there's a, there's a house, and that house is your story. Some people just drive by the road. They're like I'm not looking at my past right, not even acknowledging it. Some people will pull up in the driveway and they'll just sit in the car. But they won't get out of the car and they'll just say, wow, it's a crap time to trauma, right, give me a beer. And then other people get out of the car and they'll go in the house and they'll go into certain rooms. Maybe they'll keep some doors shut because there's just shame, blame, pain in there, right. But it takes a tremendous amount of courage to engage in your story and go into those rooms where you can truly call it what it is, even if it's messy or confusing, or even if you don't understand the chaos that lives in that room.
Mandy Majors:You're willing to acknowledge that there is a room that has not been dealt with and you're ready to go in that room and have somebody with you and say I don't know what to do, help me, and together we can sort through that room, organize it and get you help Well, and that's breaking generational cycles and that's going to impact how you parent, the conversations that you can have with your kids, because there's some things that our kids will bring up and we can't talk about it because of our past and what's in that room that we have shut the door to and or we explode because of the trigger for us.
Jamie Mershon:And that's one of the things that you know I want to talk about is just get counseling for yourself to process and navigate whatever's been shared with you from a child, from your child as a parent, because you know it may trigger things if you have this in your past, or it may re-engage with your trauma, or it may even sometimes you know it's hard because you're just like, well, I never had anyone there for me with this, and it can be hard because you so badly wanted that parent and you didn't have that parent and now you need to be that parent and so, again, it can be confusing and messy. And so, you know, making sure that you get the right care for yourself, because your goal is, you know, do your best to stay the safe, capable adult, give your child the space to be whatever they need to be Sad, withdrawn, mad, scared, relieved, anxious, right Because they need to be able to feel those things without feeling like they need to manage your emotions or comfort you.
Kim Elerick:I think that's really important that you said that. Two reasons why One, we are a very busy culture. That's our culture, that's our. Our culture is like go, go, go. We're busy and our kid is grieving, or they're stressed or they're struggling and we're like we don't have time for that, like move on, you're okay, it's fine, and one thing. And then, and then the other side of that too is we just really struggle with the compassion part of that, like this is a normal part of something that they're working through and seeking beyond just the surface emotion, like where's this coming from? And with our fast paced culture, I think we miss a lot.
Jamie Mershon:I agree with you. Yeah, and to piggyback off of that, you know, when we, when we miss those things, then we aren't also able to reassure them that they're going to be okay. Right, they're not alone. We're going to get through this, we're going to offer hope and, you know, continue to be that responsive person and not that reactive person. And you know, a piece of Jenny's story was that reporting piece and I think it's important.
Jamie Mershon:You know, as moms, it's like we love information and anxiety loves information.
Jamie Mershon:So when this comes into light, we often have so many questions, right, and I think we have to be very cautious not to flood a child who has just brought this into the light with a lot of questions.
Jamie Mershon:It's a process and once you get to the right professionals and your child starts to heal, the information will naturally surface, and if it is a situation where it needs to be reported, it can actually get really messy if the child has processed it too many times or been questioned different ways, and so it's best to just have a baseline of like, okay, you're reporting, or you're out crying, or you're sharing with me, like something happened that's very serious, and so sometimes you know, you can gauge it from one to 10,. You know, here's what a one is, here's what a five is, here's what a 10 is. Just to give you enough information to know. Oh wow, like you know, this is a full blown 10. You know we need to get to the emergency room ASAP, right, and so I think that's helpful to take you out of the counselor role and just keep you the parent, take you out of the investigator role and keep you the parent and just know, like, okay, you know I can find a trusted counselor and they're going to help me with the next steps?
Mandy Majors:Yeah, cause it's overwhelming. I mean, I work with these parents, right. They come up to me at events and they're overwhelmed and I'm always like get to a counselor and report, those are my two big things, but they're so overwhelmed with the information that they've just been given. So a lot of times I'll say, just okay, step one is get to a counselor, because I know if they get to the right trauma-informed counselor, all of the rest of this stuff is going to be handled Exactly.
Jamie Mershon:And that can look like that fight or flight. They may present it yelling and screaming and crying. They may say it and just be able to nod because they're in that freeze and a peace right. I mean, there's so many different ways a child can react and there's not a right or wrong way. And I think that's where we come and say don't have expectations, right, like some kiddos are just going to want to say it and isolate.
Jamie Mershon:We want to be mindful of safety, though, to make sure you know they're not suicidal. We want to make sure doors are open, you know. So there's got to be some boundaries of like, hey, you know I'm not going to talk to you, but I want you to be out on the couch or while I'm making dinner. You know, I don't think it's best for you to be alone in your room. Um, so just that expectation piece of knowing, like what your kid needs, like it may look different than maybe what you would need, and so you know, some kids want to isolate.
Jamie Mershon:Some kids, like, all of a sudden, have separation anxiety. They're super needy, they don't want to be apart from you. You know, some kids will act like they never shared what they just said and they're just like you know, it's not that big of a deal, and so I think those are things to be mindful of. And then, as more information comes out, just keep the circle small. Who needs to know at this time and who doesn't? You want to protect that child at all costs and we, you know in the very beginning stages, don't have enough information and we will actually do more harm and damage by kind of going into crisis mode and calling and exposing the situation.
Mandy Majors:This is such good advice, jamie, because I struggle with this so much as an organization. When, when we're trying to get a kid into counseling and it's like I feel like I tell them to call this place, and then I have to tell them to call this place and it's like they are in a crisis, does no one understand, like they don't have the capacity to figure all this out right now.
Jamie Mershon:And like being like the ER is like we're full go to the next year. Oh it's so helpless.
Mandy Majors:So I love that you're sharing these things, that we can kind of triage at home but we're not the counselor and we can never think that we are the trauma informed counselor we're always. We've got to get them to a therapist who knows what they're doing and then in between counseling appointments like we're with these kids all the time. So we got to know how to handle it without being crazy crisis. So we got to know how to handle it without being crazy.
Jamie Mershon:Crisis, exactly. And like with Michael, I love that I could be his wife. I was allowed to be just the messy, crazy wife and not the LPC Like. It gave me the freedom to say like I don't have to handle this like I would a client, because I'm not your counselor, I'm your wife, who's hormonal, who's exhausted, who is lonely. I have to be human too in this right, and so it gave me the freedom to take away that responsibility of that. I have to do this perfectly or like I would as a professional. And now, don't get me wrong, I still have a responsibility to be a safe person and I still have a responsibility for how I react and respond. Right, that's not a Michael, that's on me and I would say just to kind of like, wrap this portion up, and everything we're sharing is that there has to be so much patience and grace because this is messy.
Jamie Mershon:Spiritual warfare is real. There are sleepless nights. Emotions are high. Take away all emotions. Just listen to that list, right, messy spiritual warfare is real.
Jamie Mershon:Sleepless nights, emotions are high. You have other kids in the home. It could be financial constraints or how are we going to pay for this right? Just, logically, give yourself grace. That's a lot. That is a lot. Just like you know, if you're having a heart attack, you're not going to think clearly, lovingly and logically. You're thinking out of survival, and so you have to understand that, like, your brain might be going into fight or flight too, or it might be going into that freeze or appease where you're like why is there not more urgency in me? You might truly just be paralyzed by what you just heard, so you equally understand what's happening in your brain as all this is happening. Some people handle fight or flight wonderfully. It's that's why they're ER doctors. Right, they just can think very clearly and logically in the midst of the storm and other people just shut down and there's not a right or a wrong. It's just being patient with yourself and being able to advocate and get to the people who can think for you if you can't.
Kim Elerick:I think that's just a good like a reality talk, because a lot of times in the midst of it, if you don't respond the way that you think you should, there's a lot of shame element that comes into that and then that even creates more issues with being able to support who's in need but being able to identify like I don't do well in these situations. I want to be here for you and I hear what you're saying and I see your need, but I'm just not good in the moment. I think those honest conversations can really help, yeah it gives meaning to your response.
Jamie Mershon:So it's like oh you know, my mom's not detached, she does care. She's just vulnerable on how she's able to help me right now.
Mandy Majors:Well, and something I've done across the board with my kids. Just on general topics. You know, the first time they got a phone, the first time they got social media and I was like crazy. Sometimes I would say to them you know, I'm sorry, be patient with me, this is the first time I parented a kid with social media. I mean, would it be okay to say that to your kid, to be like I'm sorry if I'm not handling this well, like I want to protect you. I a hundred percent believe you. I was just the first time I've ever parented this. I don't know what to do and I'm in this with you, like trying to figure it out, like being vulnerable with them.
Jamie Mershon:You're never been a victim of this right. You've never said this out loud. So kind of like neither one of us are going to get this right, just kind of buckle up. This is going to be messy, but there's nothing that we can't get through together and Christ is at the center of this and we're gonna lean on him.
Jamie Mershon:And Jesus, that's your main meal and sometimes in life you need that side salad and that looks like a counselor, that looks like trauma-informed care that doesn't take away your main meal. Right, it's an addition too, and so there is such comfort and rest, knowing like just like what you were saying earlier with Michael, like I don't have to depend on my own strength and there is evidence of that in my marriage, because we're married, because God carried us, left our own devices, truly Like there are times where I really got intervened by just putting the right people there to speak truth or just softening our hearts when we were both just like I'm out, like there has been so much spiritual intervention and there's a lot of comfort in knowing that we don't have to do this alone and Christ is going to intercede on our behalf.
Mandy Majors:Jamie, there's a couple more questions, like kind of big picture questions that I want to ask you just from your professional standpoint. One is I had a. I had a mom text me after the Jenny show and she said what is the one thing that you would recommend to prevent this from happening in a family? And of course you know my mind goes to open communication and all of that kind of stuff and being a safe place and all the things, but but honestly I don't know. Even above all that I thought pornography, educate your kids about pornography, because in every case that I have been brought on when there's been child on child sexual abuse, there has been pornography in one of the steps before the physical stuff happens. Yeah, every time. And so are you seeing the same thing and are you seeing how big porn is a problem in the child on child sexual abuse world?
Jamie Mershon:Yeah, absolutely, and I think you know the lie is like well, I restrictions on my child's phone or they don't have access to that, so it's not happening Right. But we are seeing more and more where it's. They're not watching it for the first time on their device, it's on somebody else's right, neighbors, friends, Right and it's becoming normalized right and it's not a question anymore of if it's when, and so watching porn has just become this very common tactic and grooming process and it's happening younger and younger.
Mandy Majors:You shared something with me earlier about like how Next Talk is helping with the porn aversion. I really liked how you said it. Can you explain that to us, because I thought that was really good.
Jamie Mershon:Yeah, recently I was talking to a mom and her little girl was exposed to porn for the very first time and she had such a aversion to it she got physically sick like couldn't sleep, had this horrendous stomach ache Like. Even when she finally had the courage to tell her mom, like my friend showed me porn, she was hyperventilating. And this mom had done a lot of the next talk, footwork of open communication. You can come to me with anything you know good pictures, bad pictures, like. So even with all the right things in place, it still happened. And it took this little girl two days to come to her mama.
Jamie Mershon:Because that goes back to that freeze in a piece Like it was shown to this little girl by a really good friend I don't want to get my friend in trouble and then your brain just freezes. We have this idea like, oh, if that happens to me, you know I'll know what to do, you know I'll just look away. And so she was. So she had such an aversion to all the disturbing images that she had seen. And so I think, number one, we do not want our kids to be even like to ever be exposed to porn, right, but when it happens we want them to have that continued aversion where they physically get so sick they want to look away. They want to come tell us because they want to share that load with us, like mom, help me carry this.
Jamie Mershon:That weird thing happened. What was that? And there is a wall. At some point you cross over that wall and it is no longer a version. Your body and your brain are going to take over the way God designed it. What I mean by that is, once you cross over that wall, you're going to start wanting it and seeking it out and you get in that cycle of pleasure, guilt and shame. Repeat, right?
Mandy Majors:It's flesh. It's the flesh that we're all born into right, the flesh and the hormonal response as well.
Jamie Mershon:Right. So when you cross over that wall, you're going to keep going back because you start to experience pleasurable hormones and chemicals like dopamine, adrenaline, oxytocin, endorphins, right, all in the context of marriage. Those are all great things, right, when you are safe and God's best, and marriage and all of that right. But outside of that context, right, you get locked into that cycle, the of that right. But outside of that context, right, you get locked into that cycle, the flesh cycle. Right, pleasure, guilt, shame, pleasure, guilt, shame. And it becomes an addiction and you don't have that version anymore.
Mandy Majors:We believe pornography is such a big deal. We believe it's such a big thing that can prevent abuse. We're getting ready to go into a new series about pornography where Kim and I are going to dive more into pornography and give more talking points, preventative conversations and stuff like that. But there's something else that I want to ask you and it ties into the pornography question too, and this one is a little hard for me to say, and, jamie, if I say it wrong, I want you to correct me because I do not want it to seem insensitive. I believe that the older kids that are abusing these younger kids, I believe there needs to be consequences and I believe there needs to be justice for the victims, a hundred percent. Nothing that I'm getting to say past this. I don't want anybody to equate that, because I definitely believe the victims need justice.
Mandy Majors:But there's a part of me that I have a lot of empathy for these older kids who are abusing these younger kids, because they're not like the normal pedophile of you know, like an 80 year old man with all the images on his computer, that kind of like normal pedophile that we think in our minds. They're almost like a victim of a pornography-induced, sexualized culture and they've never been taught the aversion that you're talking about. Yeah, and so they just take it in and take it in, and take it in, and take it, and then they get desensitized and then we see them acting out on these young kids and now we have a whole victim and abuse and now there has to be consequences and reporting and legal and all of the things that needs to be unpacked here. But there's a part of me that is like oh my gosh, these kids that are abusing, like they have no idea what they're doing, almost because it's normalized in their world to watch sex on a screen all the time.
Jamie Mershon:And I think too, like they sometimes can buy into the lie that like well, this kid keeps coming back or engaging it, so they must like it and they too buy into the whole partnership. Right, and as you were talking, mandy, like all that just resonated in my heart over and over and over is child of God. The victim and the perpetrator are both a child of God. God loves them both, god is grieved over them both and God is not blessing what is happening. It is not his best, he does not will it, but just as much as he wants healing for the victim, he wants freedom for the perpetrator from whatever darkness that they're living in. And I think that as believers, we are called to engage and getting help for the perpetrator. But you know, certain people are called for that, called to that Right, and as believers, yes, we can pray for them and we can desire redemption and restoration. And, yes, there has to be justice and accountability. There has to because if they are not rehabilitated or there is not like accountability, then other children get harmed.
Jamie Mershon:But we have a duty to both children and it looks different and some people just are naturally going to be the protectors and feel so called to victim work, while others feel very called to perpetrators to stop it so it doesn't continue further harm.
Jamie Mershon:So I love that you're bringing that up, because you know we have mamas that are crying as the parent of a victim and we have mamas who are crying as a parent of a perpetrator, and you know that's a really we talk about just the loneliness in this right. It's a really lonely place, though, because you want to protect your child but you need to get them help, and sometimes even you may have two children that are both in one home. You may have the victim and the perpetrator, like we're seeing more and more of that, and so that even makes it more complex, and it would be very unloving for us to have this conversation and not talk about that piece. And so I love that you brought that up, mandy, because it is good and right to talk about that piece. We don't want anyone to be a victim or a perpetrator, but we live in a broken world and we live in a fallen world. That is the reality that we have to live in.
Mandy Majors:Well, and I think it's a reminder to me, just as a mom, to make sure my kids are educated so they wouldn't fall into the trap of becoming a perpetrator right Like. Just like we do with our boys, with consent, with girls, we need to be educating our kids on why pornography is bad and it makes you desensitized and sometimes, when you watch it over and over, then you will not respect other people's boundaries and you can never do that Like, and so that's why we need you to always report porn to me, because we don't want that line to be blurred for you with the boundaries.
Jamie Mershon:Right me, because we don't want that line to be blurred for you with the boundaries Right. And I think too, as a parent of a perpetrator even going a little deeper of like who exposed my child to porn. Is my child a victim who then became a perpetrator? This is where it gets really hard and we have to keep all of those things on our radar. Sometimes it truly is porn is the source, and other times it's. They're a victim and they're repeating the cycle.
Mandy Majors:Yeah, Porn or abuse, when you, most of the time, when we see kid, kid abusing kid, that kid has been exposed to porn or been abused themselves or both. I mean I we'd see it all the time. So you know, to prevent this from happening in your family, you watch these series and it's grieved you. You got to talk to your kids. You have to educate them. This is what we're talking about. This prevents the abuse from happening.
Kim Elerick:Yes, and on both sides, to the perpetrator and the victim side, for our kids, because it's easy to think like my kid would never be the perpetrator, you know. So we have to talk about both sides of the issue and share with them what that looks like so that they see the signs.
Jamie Mershon:I think that's a great point, Kim, because sometimes we think we're immune from this stuff because we are doing so many of the right things, and I think it is really ignorant to think that we're exempt or immune because we're doing a lot of things right, and that's what the enemy wants us to find fake comfort in, you know, or security in Never say never, never say, never, never say never.
Mandy Majors:Jamie, thank you today. I know it was a longer show, but we tackled a lot from the side of your personal and from a counselor perspective, and so thank you for all the work you're doing and thank you for being a part of this series. Your voice was very important here.
Jamie Mershon:Well, I just am so excited to see what God is going to do with this series, and I know a lot of it will never even know on the side of heaven, truthfully.
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Jamie Mershon:This podcast is not intended to replace the advice of a trained healthcare or legal professional, or to diagnose, treat or otherwise render expert advice regarding any type of medical, psychological or legal problem. Listeners are advised to consult a qualified expert for treatment.